tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post3239466376970379158..comments2023-04-15T01:34:35.989-07:00Comments on BGBC Survivors: The UnMarried Movie: Singleness as a Result of Rigid and Controlled ParentingJulie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-17363266516784484822012-12-09T10:02:22.222-08:002012-12-09T10:02:22.222-08:00Jerome - Thanks for the response. I'm glad yo...Jerome - Thanks for the response. I'm glad you're in a place that seems more healthy as far as relationships between singles. I think you could be right about a lack of role models. Good point.<br /><br />I'm wondering if the difficulty in letting go of those rigid rules with Christian young ladies is because the subject is so clouded with rules and you'd really have to discuss this topic at length to figure out "where" she was on this issue. You have no clue when looking at a young lady if she is of the "no touch/no talk" camp or if she's from the "it's okay to talk and engage with someone of the opposite sex" camp. It must be so confusing for you. With non-Christians, they've never been exposed to this, so there are no rules. It absolutely makes sense that connecting with non-Christians would be easier, but that's not the best idea when considering the unequally yoked aspect, unfortunately. <br /><br />I'm going to throw this idea out because I have a hunch that you are not the only one struggling with this issue and maybe you or others may find this beneficial. One interesting tool I've learned along the way about conflict is that the actual conflict presents itself as a huge mountain. Sometimes it's easier to discuss about "why" the conflict is a conflict - tackling that mountain in smaller steps by talking about you and your feelings about the conflict rather than deal with the conflict directly. <br /><br />You can use this "conflict" to engage a young lady. For example - you may be trying to figure out where a particular girl stands as far as the unspoken rules. Instead of of not talking to her because of not knowing, bring the subject up. Yes, bring this subject up to her. Put it right smack on the table by saying something like: "this is a little weird for me because in my former church we were discouraged from having conversations with someone of the opposite sex, etc. I'm trying to work through that." yada yada Jerome, let me tell you, I cannot imagine a young lady turning away from that kind of honesty. This is like a magnet for young ladies. It will invite conversation. Try it and let me know how it works for ya :)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-83848448830045628722012-12-09T03:46:36.888-08:002012-12-09T03:46:36.888-08:00Julie Anne - yes I'm attending another church ...Julie Anne - yes I'm attending another church which is far more 'lax' on the practical aspects of relationships between unmarried men/women.<br /><br />Mentally its very tough overcoming the habits that have been built up over many years - still got a long way to go before I find a balanced approach. At the moment I'm still very conservative as I don't want to swing from one extreme (no contact with members of the opposite sex) to the other (basically 'hitting' on all girls that I meet) as I've seen some guys do. Holding eye contact with girls of my age range is still very difficult, and yet at work I manage a couple of rough construction crews!<br /><br />An interesting aside is how it is much easier to talk to non-Christian girls than Christian girls. I'm still trying to figure that one out, whether that's typical, but with many of the guys in the former church I noticed it as well.<br /><br />Going back to the Unmarried Movie Trailer - I would have to say in part that this 'issue' is also due to in many churches there being few role models of the marriage process for young people to follow, which causes a paralysis in young people who do wish to get hitched because they have no idea what to do.<br />Jeromenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-68134745350250973052012-12-08T20:20:56.374-08:002012-12-08T20:20:56.374-08:00Jerome - Thanks for sharing your experience. That...Jerome - Thanks for sharing your experience. That's a lot of singles in that age group. What a shame. When my husband and I were at our college group at church, quite a few paired up - in fact, I'd say at least half did. This was way before this courtship/I Kissed Dating Good-bye stuff. Are you in a new church now? So now that you've been out for a while, do you feel more freedom? Or do you still hear the old messages in our head? I know sometimes it takes a while to exchange those faulty messages with good teachings. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-61230998139926431012012-12-08T19:56:32.753-08:002012-12-08T19:56:32.753-08:00From experience I would totally agree that the mov...From experience I would totally agree that the movie is all about damage control. The church where I grew up all my life and only left a couple of years ago went down the path of 'no see, no touch' in terms of relationships between the sexes. There are now probably 70-80 people between the ages of 20-30,and there's been no relationships/marriages between anyone inside the church, and only one with someone from outside the church, and they left as soon as they got married I think in order to get out.<br /><br />For all of us guy It got to the stage where you didn't even acknowledge the existence of girls around you or make eye contact because of the ramifications that would follow. Small wonder that this problem is now really becoming a problem in the church...Jeromenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-16750915672807519432012-12-08T15:50:23.480-08:002012-12-08T15:50:23.480-08:00In response to Sad:
You're correct - "on...In response to Sad:<br /><br />You're correct - "one cannot be "anti-reformed" and be a Protestant."<br /><br />The person I was referring to was raised Roman Catholic and has come to faith in Christ. However, this particular person has a very hard time accepting God's election and believes people "choose Him". Therefore, this person is opposed to TULIP or Calvinism. Many might call this person "Arminian", but there are varying degrees of spiritual growth and understanding.<br /><br />One thing I appreciate about being able to read Julie Anne's blog is that there are a wide range of Christians posting. And there are a wide range of views and grace and acceptance of people here in all stages of spiritual growth and understanding.<br /><br />Not a Rebelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-31021508981798374472012-12-08T07:40:09.355-08:002012-12-08T07:40:09.355-08:00Sad - Calvinists sometimes define themselves on a ...Sad - Calvinists sometimes define themselves on a scale using the TULIP 5-pt. Some will call themselves a 3-pt Calvinist. A New Calvinist/Hyper Calvinist/Neo Calvinist is one that embraces TULIP and goes beyond that with a distinct focus on the sovereignty of God over salvation. I'm going to leave it at that because that is my understanding of the difference in which I can put real words on. Interestingly, I just went to several different sites to see what they said about this topic and the definitions were all over the place.<br /><br />Author Paul Dohse (and blogger, listed in my side bar) does most of his writing on this topic and told me months ago, he believes New Calivinism, Neo Calvinism, Hyper Calvinism are all the same thing. <br /><br />Since blogging and interacting with countless readers on spiritual abuse, I do see a pattern of abuse more likely in New Calvinist circles than Calvinist circles. <br /><br /><br /><br />Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-5383101252288371092012-12-08T04:00:01.448-08:002012-12-08T04:00:01.448-08:00Julie Anne,
How do you define "Calvinist&quo...Julie Anne,<br /><br />How do you define "Calvinist" versus "New Calvinist"?<br /><br />Not A Rebel,<br /><br />If you are referring to Protestant home-schooling families...well...one cannot be "anti-reformed" and be a Protestant. Were it not for the Reformation, we would all be Roman Catholics. Were it not for Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. being moved of the Holy Spirit to throw off the corruption of Rome...the only grace available to us would be filtered through the magisterium and coffers of the Vatican.Sadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-12246155915073796572012-12-07T21:30:48.723-08:002012-12-07T21:30:48.723-08:00Sad, I am no expert on the subject of Calvinism. ...Sad, I am no expert on the subject of Calvinism. I know Calvinists who demonstrate grace in their life. However, I have not seen the same measure of grace by New Calvinists. I'm not sure why that is. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-74094867749483643982012-12-07T21:00:07.600-08:002012-12-07T21:00:07.600-08:00Oops! I meant to type - "Whacked out", r...Oops! I meant to type - "Whacked out", rigid and controlled parenting occurs in Reformed and anti-Calvinist (anti-Reformed) families regardless of the type of schooling, but I agree it may be more prevalent in home school families. Not a Rebelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-4518652326979074262012-12-07T20:17:52.227-08:002012-12-07T20:17:52.227-08:00Julie Anne,
There are anti-Calvinist (Arminian) h...Julie Anne,<br /><br />There are anti-Calvinist (Arminian) home schoolers who have practiced not only courtship with their children, but actually "arranged a marriage" - two dads agreed on the potential for a relationship and then the young couple was allowed to proceed with the courtship.<br /><br />Bob Jones University has strict rules and "dating parlors" - a grad mentioned that Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. had said "No kissing, Over my dead body" or some similar quote. He told the story of how some students took that literally and met to kiss over the grave of Dr. Jones, Sr. - No way to know if this is a true story, but enough people seemed to know it.<br /><br />Make rules and some young people will create a "work-sround".<br /><br />I know of two families whose extreme control of their children created young people with washed-out, robotic personalities. They went to college (secular Ivy league for one family) and then came home to live with parents. The controlling parent is a father in one family, a mother in the other family. Both of these parents grew up in dysfunctional families where they lacked affection from a parent. One family is Reformed, the other is strongly opposed to and suspicious of any "Calvinism". <br /><br />"Whacked out", rigid and controlled parenting occurs primarily in Reformed home-schooling families. Not a Rebelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-40341306328969083692012-12-07T20:17:32.316-08:002012-12-07T20:17:32.316-08:00Julie
Shame on you for wearing pants. ;-)
You...Julie<br /><br />Shame on you for wearing pants. ;-) <br /><br />You are correct about the stay at home daughters being associated with Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin. Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527099698623190200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-31737959848228064982012-12-07T19:33:02.738-08:002012-12-07T19:33:02.738-08:00The Five Solas of reformed theology have absolutel...The Five Solas of reformed theology have absolutely nothing to do with politics, so it is incorrect to link them to dominionism.<br /><br />Calvinistic thinking, carried to its natural conclusion, can be nothing but grace filled. If we are depraved worms that deserve perdition and yet were given mercy.......it would be portray a complete lack of apprehension of the magnitude of that mercy were we to be graceless to others.Sadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-6872649748479351582012-12-07T15:13:11.968-08:002012-12-07T15:13:11.968-08:00Steve - Thanks for your comment. I think this &qu...Steve - Thanks for your comment. I think this "vision group" is not officially connected with the stay at home daughters. I assume you are talking about Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin? They are different families with the same patriarchal belief system. All of their blogs seem to look alike with - Victorian-looking women dressed in gowns, etc. <br /><br />Meanwhile, I'm wearing pants in my house as I type this! :)Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-89275151484085723752012-12-07T14:04:08.156-08:002012-12-07T14:04:08.156-08:00As someone else pointed out, it has been my experi...As someone else pointed out, it has been my experience that the teaching on "kissing dating goodbye" and courtship has caused problems including singles not marrying that want to or as early as might have been appropriate. One person wrote a blog entry titled along the lines of regretting kissing dating goodbye and he indicated that the KDG movement caused him to no learn social skills with women thus making it difficult for him to meet and marry. Another person indicated in a comment on my blog that KDG gave men in their 20's an "excuse" for not pursuing relationships with women and just doing things with other single men. <br /><br />My experience has been that wherever "kissing dating goodbye" and courtship is taught, singles are almost "afraid" of those of the opposite sex. To put it another way singles learn how to avoid relating to those of the opposite sex vs. how to properly relate. <br /><br />Isn't this vision group the same ones that had a video talking about "stay at home" daughters. This would be where daughters over the age of 18 rather than going to college or get an outside job would stay at home and learn domestic skills till and in preparation for marriage? <br /><br />Steve<br />www.ikdg.wordpress.com<br />"I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Wisdom or Foolishness?" Steve W.http://www.ikdg.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-81636588565525664012012-12-07T13:55:06.114-08:002012-12-07T13:55:06.114-08:00David: I haven't read that particular story, ...David: I haven't read that particular story, but have read similar stories. It does make sense when you are shutting down your God-given natural responses, you are going to have to retrain yourself to accept them as normal and good. That sure would complicate marriage and marriage is no easy task to begin with!<br /><br />Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-58631385041815394732012-12-07T13:02:32.841-08:002012-12-07T13:02:32.841-08:00They may be able to salvage things by concentratin...They may be able to salvage things by concentrating on the Companionship angle first. I have always longed for Companionship instead of orgasm, and orgasm is everywhere these days. (An upbringing as a sheltered-and-fast-tracked kid genius and bad experiences in high school and after has left me with a deep deep distrust or women.)<br /><br />I suspect the root of this "abstinence and purity pounded into their heads" is an extreme reaction to the eroticization of the surrounding culture.Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-35144618646503306792012-12-07T12:58:09.652-08:002012-12-07T12:58:09.652-08:00In a nutshell, the "Reformed" (i.e. Calv...In a nutshell, the "Reformed" (i.e. Calvinist) Christian circles are being taken over by "Truly Reformed" (i.e. Hyper-Calvinist) extremists. Wartburg Watch calls them "Calvinistas".<br /><br />And Truly Reformed Calvinistas are Control Freaks. Just like their beloved Calvin was in Geneva.Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-16021271871326184182012-12-07T12:28:17.089-08:002012-12-07T12:28:17.089-08:00On a somewhat related note, I saw a post in the Ch...On a somewhat related note, I saw a post in the Christianity subreddit forum from a 24 year old woman who married her boyfriend of 7 years. She is in panic because after years of abstinence and purity pounded into their heads, their sexual feelings for each other have been completely stamped out. They have not even celebrated the 1 year anniversary, but the marriage is almost sexless already.<br /><br />Never thought of that as an unintended consequence of the heavy handed approach to purity and modesty. How twisted is that?David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-84795492613863991452012-12-07T06:40:05.410-08:002012-12-07T06:40:05.410-08:00HUG,
I think you're onto something here. I als...HUG,<br />I think you're onto something here. I also lost my father when I was 20. I think it was one of the hardest times of my whole life. <br /><br />If a person never learns to make their own decisions, who will replace their parents? They are in for a terrible shock, IMHO. <br /><br />I totally agree with what you are saying here.<br /><br />Sheep-Dognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-38199952727088214912012-12-06T17:13:32.977-08:002012-12-06T17:13:32.977-08:00Yes, I'll have to do that. But briefly, it st...Yes, I'll have to do that. But briefly, it stems from the homeschool movement and the founders, movers and shakers within that movement starting with Rushdoony who was a Reconstructionist. Key pillars in the homeschool movement are Reconstructionist or Dominionist - they are all staunch Calvinist and many hyper-Calvinists. I really have not seen any Arminians connected with the homeschool movement. I might have to research that a little more. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-74269045147875086312012-12-06T17:10:04.639-08:002012-12-06T17:10:04.639-08:00Matthias - Good thing you are freeeeeeeeeee from ...Matthias - Good thing you are freeeeeeeeeee from that! This is all kinds of crazy. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-6949643449661786272012-12-06T15:07:05.851-08:002012-12-06T15:07:05.851-08:00Julie Anne,
I know you and I have discussed this ...Julie Anne,<br /><br />I know you and I have discussed this offline before, but could you please put up a post as to why the courtship/betrothal movement (and specifically the more legalistic applications/models of it) took off in Reformed Christian circles, but not so much so in Arminian leaning churches? I have known of Arminians that practice forms of courtship as well, but dare I say, it has always been much more grace filled than their Reformed/Calvinist brothers and sisters.Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-73791721942074019192012-12-06T15:02:57.431-08:002012-12-06T15:02:57.431-08:00Julie Anne,
There would have been no asking permi...Julie Anne,<br /><br />There would have been no asking permission of her father. They wanted me to vow these things to them prior to the marriage, or they were not going to allow a marriage to occur.Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-40964816121144611862012-12-06T14:40:46.110-08:002012-12-06T14:40:46.110-08:00Some years ago in an Internet Monk thread on the s...Some years ago in an Internet Monk thread on the subject, somebody coined the phrase "Salvation by Marriage Alone".<br /><br />Someone else traced it to the Reformation Wars, a backlash against the elevation of Celibate Religious and Holy Orders in the Medieval church and the resulting zero-sum downgrading of marriage.Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-52746945205438418922012-12-06T14:37:14.486-08:002012-12-06T14:37:14.486-08:00In that situation, Chryssie, I sure hope Mommy &am...In that situation, Chryssie, I sure hope Mommy & Daddy plan on outliving their children.<br /><br />Due to some mess-ups in my own upbringing, when my mother died in 1975 I had to grow from a dependent emotional age of 6 to my chronological age of 20 literally overnight. Even today at 57 the damage is still there. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have to grow from an emotionally dependent, totally inexperienced age 6 to 60 instantly. And that's what's going to happen to those adult children with uncut apron strings.Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.com