tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post5556128172703935942..comments2023-04-15T01:34:35.989-07:00Comments on BGBC Survivors: Hyper-Modesty in the Church, Part 1Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-51202361689413078622012-06-20T10:37:22.652-07:002012-06-20T10:37:22.652-07:00JULIE ANNE! That was profound. very convicting. yo...JULIE ANNE! That was profound. very convicting. you paint a disturbing picture of bgbc. you may have very well inspired me to tell my story of Graceful Modesty vs a Legalistic Mentality.<br /><br />i sniffed bgbc in seconds. i know the signs and sickness of fundamentalism. i'm reminded again why i once remarked: 'the Devil is a fundamentalist.' Legalism is far more harmful to the body of Christ than any other vital alternative to being and doing church. <br /><br />[Note: I am not at all suggesting that <i>legalistic fundamentalism</i> is a vital option. it kills and brings death. it chokes and binds people in the most spirit-crushing form of bondage. it is everything the Gospel has set us free from.]David Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-80352977079452575062012-05-24T21:20:37.072-07:002012-05-24T21:20:37.072-07:00uh no. I understood your point, but misquoting the...uh no. I understood your point, but misquoting the Bible, even loosely, or even sort of kind of saying something like "I question the phrase that money is the root of all evil" starts leaving you wide open for attacks...it starts sounding like you question scripture, or that you don't understand it - whether you want it to or not. Just use your words with caution - free speech or no.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-1671016350773966062012-05-24T19:52:02.014-07:002012-05-24T19:52:02.014-07:00I assume the end goal of all this "helicopter...I assume the end goal of all this "helicoptering" of people's lives is to prevent unwanted pregnancy (sex). It is interesting to note that the U.S.; which has the most oppressive system of underlying societal modesty principles; and some of its churches like this one even more repressive; has the highest rate of teen and unwanted pregnancy in the world. And the countries where modesty is the least worried about have the absolute lowest rates. Dynamite placed in a box has much more destructive power than when it is allowed to just remain in the open. The covering of little boy's eyes in the mall when passing lingerie only really says "just look better later when no one is around". But this is not just about sex and modesty. Many religions feel it must confine the human soul in small boxes in many ways but when it does so it only causes life to eventually explode from its confinement. Trust me….I was raised and lived in a hyper-repressive system and kept my kids in tiny boxes. They eventually escaped and I am sorry I placed burdens on them too heavy to bear.<br /><br />I do wonder what this pastor has to say about Isaiah walking naked (naked!)and barefoot for three whole years by God's command (Isaiah 20), or Jesus throwing off his garments when he washed feet or... Well, there are a good many stories like this in the Bible. I’m not suggesting we throw off our clothes but…a swimsuit in my book is perfectly fine at the beach or the pool; despite the eleventh commandment prohibiting them. And heavens it seems there were women of the night too who were not turned away but were provided shelter in many instances in the Bible. (At Jericho for one--Joshua 6:25) Seriously, one only need look back at how people lived in pre-modern times. Small houses, public watering holes for baths, no state of the art shower rooms with running water at the pool. Loin cloths? Seriously, man makes more of an issue of this than God or Jesus ever did. I would be interested to see how this pastor explains these words of Paul:<br /><br />Col. 2:20 since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. <br /><br />Certainly he was not exactly talking about swimsuits but the false modesty being represented falls into the same category he describes.<br /> <br />I grew up in an extreme Pentecostal household where even make-up and jewelry were considered immodest and sinful. To some even Chap-Stick was questioned. I see nothing in the Ten Commandments or Jesus teachings about where these lines are actually drawn. Certainly much of it is cultural norms and not spiritual law and we have no right to be adamant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-48535370746863820532012-05-24T17:26:54.914-07:002012-05-24T17:26:54.914-07:00"In reality, the modesty checklists, rules an..."In reality, the modesty checklists, rules and regulations like the ones you posted that come down from the pulpit causes a multitude of sexual issues (that the members have) for those that strive to follow the rules."<br /><br />Julie Anne's head is nodding in agreement.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-6086662539767608832012-05-24T16:53:44.001-07:002012-05-24T16:53:44.001-07:00Wow - your old church sounds a lot like a cult. In...Wow - your old church sounds a lot like a cult. In reality, the modesty checklists, rules and regulations like the ones you posted that come down from the pulpit causes a multitude of sexual issues (that the members have) for those that strive to follow the rules.<br /><br />I look forward to reading part two.Freedomhttp://freedommetal.hubpages.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-57336297048019846362012-05-24T16:29:30.316-07:002012-05-24T16:29:30.316-07:00I think you missed my point.I think you missed my point.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-6374396468768066072012-05-24T15:25:18.021-07:002012-05-24T15:25:18.021-07:00except that it's not a phrase. It's a scri...except that it's not a phrase. It's a scripture. And it's "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil." The world just loves to misquote it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-31398958074938677352012-05-24T14:30:43.437-07:002012-05-24T14:30:43.437-07:00If anon 1:00 just called Julie Anne a liar, (when ...If anon 1:00 just called Julie Anne a liar, (when what she said was true) wouldn't that mean Julie Anne could sue her for defamation under the same "rules" that chuck uses?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-91789604922709247122012-05-24T14:15:27.370-07:002012-05-24T14:15:27.370-07:00Thank you, trekkerjay! Having no accountability w...Thank you, trekkerjay! Having no accountability was one of the big red flags I saw.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-25025692534737397552012-05-24T14:14:02.943-07:002012-05-24T14:14:02.943-07:00Exactly - and let's not forget that He gave us...Exactly - and let's not forget that He gave us His Holy Spirit.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-70995781231111709942012-05-24T14:13:00.978-07:002012-05-24T14:13:00.978-07:00Exactly, Mike! Rape is about control.
I don...Exactly, Mike! Rape is about control. <br /><br />I don't know if you caught the comment by someone who said that spiritual abuse is rape of the soul. Wow, that's powerful. It, too, is about control. That is what we experienced, one person trying to control so many aspects of our lives - - - even after we left the church. I question the phrase that $$ is the root of all evil. Perhaps wanting to be in control is the root of all evil.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-43531200700302537842012-05-24T14:00:59.176-07:002012-05-24T14:00:59.176-07:00Oh my, that was beeeeeeeautiful! Thank you so much...Oh my, that was beeeeeeeautiful! Thank you so much for sharing this comment. YES!!! What a wonderful principal you had.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-31192249650693431122012-05-24T13:57:25.826-07:002012-05-24T13:57:25.826-07:00This is a problem that I see with churches that ar...This is a problem that I see with churches that are not connected to a larger denomination in some way... there is no oversight, and no one to whom the pastor is accountable. The pastor's flock often feel, as you did at first Julie Anne, that the pastor's theology MUST be right, and what he (or she) says MUST be true, because that person is THE PASTOR... and as members of the flock, many times they do not feel it is proper for them to judge their pastor... With such power given by the congregation, the pastor who is not accountable to anyone, who is under no one's authority (but God's), can easily slip into abusing his/her congregation, all in the name of the Lord... and who will question it? <br /><br />Be encouraged, Julie Anne... You have done right and well to continue on in your Christian faith, while you stand up against abuse and call to account the one acting as an "abusive shepherd".trekkerjayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03680646725351266903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-50992555926167210862012-05-24T12:48:13.873-07:002012-05-24T12:48:13.873-07:00One simple question comes to mind: Where is the l...One simple question comes to mind: Where is the love? You obviously showed her love, but she was trampled by the church. So let's go out and evangelize and share the "love of Christ" on Friday evangelism night and forsake those in the midst right under your nose. I feel the anger rising withing me. I better stop typing . . . . .Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-90242165760457176462012-05-24T12:23:30.536-07:002012-05-24T12:23:30.536-07:00Thank you Jackie :)Thank you Jackie :)Beloved in Recoverynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-24841465866956656002012-05-24T11:47:31.156-07:002012-05-24T11:47:31.156-07:00This reminds me of something that the principal of...This reminds me of something that the principal of my school once said. I attended a private christian school, just saying that brings to mind the idea of children wearing uniforms and listening to brainwashing speeches. Luckily it was nothing like that. Our principal got up to speak at a chapel and he said something very profound. It went something like this.<br /><br />"As a school, we don't really have a rule book. There are a couple of things written down as policy for our students, but for the most part we don't have a big long list of rules. Why is that?" He then brought up his Bible. "We have God's word." <br /><br />I don't remember the rest of what he said, but I remember the general idea. Basically, if we are actively pursuing a relationship with God then we don't need to worry about the rules, because chances are we are probably not gonna be breaking any of them.<br /><br />But don't we want to know what the rules are? Believe it or not, it is our human nature to crave definition of rules. We won't to know exactly how things work so that we can order our lives around them. God actually obliged us with this by giving us the mosaic laws. But if you are any kind of Bible student you will recognize that before there was a mosaic law, there was... Well... nothing. Abraham believed in God, and that was considered righteousness. <br /><br />How exactly does a guy with no clearly defined rules attain the status of being righteous? He was clearly a sinner. he lied about his wife being his sister twice, and even doubted God about the birth of his children. But he was considered righteous. Why? Because he pursued God. He followed God, and that is ultimately what God is looking for. The Law was made to define sin, and ultimate it's purpose is to point out the damnation of man's soul. But thank God that not only is he righteous and holy, but he is also gracious and merciful. God sent his Son to die for us. Because sin had to be punished. Sin HAD to be punished. Christ was punished for our sin. So now there is nothing between us and God. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm gonna worry less about the rules and more about my relationship with God. Hallelujah and Amen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-55094697167991665452012-05-24T10:21:26.303-07:002012-05-24T10:21:26.303-07:00While I believe in dressing modestly, I also don&#...While I believe in dressing modestly, I also don't feel that there are scriptures that describe our physical dress. I do see scriptures that speak of adorning ourselves with our "good deeds" and know that the Holy Spirit working in our hearts convicts us to represent ourselves as godly vessels. <br />I attended BGBC for several years and at one point I brought into my home a young girl whose lifestyle was full of promiscuity and addictions. She was attempting to leave that behind her and press forward in her search for God and how to walk with Him. She was unemployed and did not have any financial resources. At that time, my household budget was also severly limited and barely supported my family. The clothes that she brought with her really didn't fit my idea of modesty either, but it was all she had. I did give her an extra blouse of mine that she could wear over the "halter-style" tops that she had. So, she wore the same outfit week after week. Inevitably she was called into chuck's office for the shame to change lecture, aka modesty meeting. Chuck was well aware of both her situation and mine. She came out humiliated and confused. She was trying to change her ways and accept the Lord's leading in her life and really what she needed was others to come alongside her to help her out. Wouldn't it have been more loving if anyone (chuck) could have given her a $30 gift card to Ross or had someone take her shopping for a few new tops? Instead of condemning her for what she didn't have. The whole story is sadder. I had brought her into my home to mentor to her, study scriptures daily, be an example, and (I thought) take her to my church family to love on her and be examples of who Christ was to them. She left my home after a few short months, feeling that she was never going to measure up to all of the rules and expectations at the church. She promised that she would still read her Bible, but she didn't want to go to church. Since that was one of the rules of my home, she didn't feel she could stay. I have tried to stay in close touch with her and continue to pray with her and encourage her. Unfortunately, the temptation of going back into the same environment she had been trying to leave behind simply re-opened all the sinful relationships and opportunities back to her. It has been a couple of years now. She is now the unwed mother of several children, after losing 2 others to miscarriages. She is living with the father of her children and they are getting married "sometime in the future". She feels less judged by her current drug using friends, than she did at church. I can't help but wonder, as I pray over her daily, would it have made a difference in her life if she had been surrounded by love instead of judgment?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-47957680682368151332012-05-24T09:32:56.650-07:002012-05-24T09:32:56.650-07:00When you go to "Select Profile," choose ...When you go to "Select Profile," choose name/URL. Then just put a name in - you don't have to fill in the URL part.<br /><br />JackieYou don't have to put in a URLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-60660826247618317012012-05-24T08:34:05.415-07:002012-05-24T08:34:05.415-07:00I went to a christian high school (operated by a r...I went to a christian high school (operated by a really bizarre baptist church) where most of the teachers were from BJU. They would staple paper around the girls dresses if they were too short (literally extending the length with paper). Then at summer camp they had girl swim time & boy swim time. You also couldn't go to movies, just rent them and watch at home like a total pharisee.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-208267983761573272012-05-24T08:02:32.705-07:002012-05-24T08:02:32.705-07:00White hanky comment right here, folks!White hanky comment right here, folks!Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-40349010053760746472012-05-24T08:01:14.360-07:002012-05-24T08:01:14.360-07:00Meaghan - I've never heard this story before. ...Meaghan - I've never heard this story before. <br /><br />What I find interesting is that we all were not treated equally. I remember a middle-aged woman who came week after week wearing low-cut tops and showed cleavage. <br /><br />It seems that not all got that kind of "personal attention" that you received. And that only made the environment more confusing. It's okay for some, but not for others.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-84165666170545793152012-05-24T07:56:42.370-07:002012-05-24T07:56:42.370-07:00Someone definitely has issues there! Crazy.Someone definitely has issues there! Crazy.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-90769055993709680592012-05-24T07:55:04.525-07:002012-05-24T07:55:04.525-07:00Thanks for sharing the link, Mike. I, too, don...Thanks for sharing the link, Mike. I, too, don't see anything wrong with the outfit. It's cute (IMHO), the skirt is loose, the top is just a basic ladies t-shirt. I don't get what the problem is. No cleavage is showing. Yea, I would have to agree with you that someone else has the problem, certainly not the young lady. I'd buy that outfit for daughter.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-50569782232432101602012-05-24T06:42:21.183-07:002012-05-24T06:42:21.183-07:00This excerpt by Charles Stanley is so good, and re...This excerpt by Charles Stanley is so good, and really deals with what comes to my mind when I read this post. The sin that you are trying to avoid becomes elevated in your mind. This part can be found at about 4:30 on the video. But the whole thing is so good, and really speaks about the whole church issue in a legalistic church. What we want elevated in our mind is Jesus Himself! When our hearts and minds are focused on Him, He is our source, and the Holy Spirit is faithful to convict and enable us to overcome. When we are trying to avoid, we take the whole thing on in our own strength. And we don't have what it takes in our own strength. We are not focused on Him, and like Peter walking on the water - we will fall. Anyhow, give this a listen. Stanley nails it here. The whole thing. http://youtu.be/f-N_HueFxMI<br /><br />From Beloved in Recovery<br /><br />P.S. Some people seem able to post a name without linking to a url or other website. How do I do that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-26665832928341969652012-05-24T04:57:49.654-07:002012-05-24T04:57:49.654-07:00I have to agree. Speaking as a Jew, the whole foc...I have to agree. Speaking as a Jew, the whole focus on women (as opposed to men) sinning or "causing men" to sin is something I expect out of the Haredi Jews in Northern Jerusalem. It is the behavior I expect from zealots and fanatics who are otherwise adherents to the Abrahamic faiths. Otherwise, its a good example of cherry-picking from our respective scripture what we choose or don't choose to follow.<br /><br />Jesus openly engaged and respected women, in a cultural society that regarded them as barely above a sheep or camel.<br /><br />And by the way, rape statistics, such as they exist, due in fact that we still live in a culture that still blames the woman, show that mode of dress has *zippo* to do with being assaulted, and everything to do with *control*.MikeH.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07151462359800934956noreply@blogger.com