tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post6663526802287318249..comments2023-04-15T01:34:35.989-07:00Comments on BGBC Survivors: Do I have an unforgiving heart?Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-77271578850408146022012-07-09T08:59:02.886-07:002012-07-09T08:59:02.886-07:00"I think, when the focus of your Blog alters ..."I think, when the focus of your Blog alters away from the negatives you experienced from your former Pastor and Grace Bible Church, healing will take place. I seems like things are getting too personal for healing to take place.<br />...<br />For me I had to stop venting and replaying the things my Pastor did to me and our church. When that finally happened I went from two hours sleep a night to 7 hours a night."<br /><br />Let's just assume you're right David...So what you're saying David is that healing is "up to Julie." Perhaps this is how she is 'healing'? Is that how God works? Waiting for us to take initiative? To heal ourselves? If that's the God you serve I have to wonder what Bible you're reading.<br /><br />I do think it's wise for Julie to keep in mind that this may never be resolved to her satisfaction. In fact, often when we get what we 'want' we find we aren't satisfied. But I don't see her as wanting anything punitive from the pastor. She wants him to repent and/or just leave her alone to have her own opinions which she is free in this country to publish. That alone speaks volumes about her level of 'healing' in this. She seems gracious and well balanced, far more so than I am in ordinary life when things are going well. <br /><br />:-)<br /><br />Sure, we all need to forgive those who have wronged us. She seems already to have done that and is now compelled to keep working out the ramifications of dealing with an unrepentant jerk and in love, warning others to keep away from him. But there will always be gluttons for punishment who won't listen.<br /><br />I'm off to listen to some Chuck ONeal sermons to refresh my memory. I did a little in May when all this first came out, and they weren't particularly inspiring to me... really law-focused, surprise surprise... when you have a pastor focused on how to be a godly person (LAW), it's not really a stretch to see that he's going to redouble his efforts at applying LAW instead of grace/gospel when you don't match up to it in his mind.terriergalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08801794520433439408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-46881165528615017712012-05-29T22:47:42.792-07:002012-05-29T22:47:42.792-07:00I believe I have responded to a similar post of yo...I believe I have responded to a similar post of yours elsewhere, but I will respond again. I have numbered your paragraphs in order to save space & time:<br /><br />#1 - that is your opinion, but not mine.<br /><br />#2 - I am certainly not playing victim. Not greeting someone does not constitute shunning. That is a far-fetched conclusion.<br /><br />#3 - There are so many things wrong with this paragraph. All you have to do is simply leave the church and you will most likely get shunned. If you didn't, consider yourself one of the "lucky" ones. Are you implying that if you knew of a sexual offender in the church and that authorities were not notified, you would not report it? Ok, then. There is much more I could discuss on this paragraph, but you are simply speculating on what you have no clue about.<br /><br /><br />#4 - What are you talking about? We found a new church within a couple months after leaving. We loved it there and no problem finding a new church. Modesty issue had nothing to do with it. <br /><br />#5 We have never attended Southwest Bible.<br /><br />#6 I am not playing a reporter here. I am telling my story, so I don't need to be "fair and balanced". As far as starting a discussion - why don't you ask Chuck why he has never responded to any phone call, e-mail, or accepted the offer of another pastor to mediate? Who is not talking? Chuck is the one who has people in church discipline AFTER they leave without informing them and then tells the church to shun them. Please provide the chapter and verse in the Bible for that concept. You won't find it.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-6527749212496486982012-05-29T22:21:57.772-07:002012-05-29T22:21:57.772-07:00So, I am trying to make sense of all this. Julie ...So, I am trying to make sense of all this. Julie Anne, you say that you were "spiritually abused." So, that is why you've spent the last couple of years trying to make sure that everybody knows that you feel that you were mistreated, and to keep as many people as possible away from BGBC. <br /><br />I am just curious to know what role, other than victim, you played in all of this is. A conflict is very rarely caused 100% by one party. My family went to BGBC for a short time. It was only about a year, because the church was simply too far to drive to, and there was another really good church in our area we wanted to get involved with. However, most of the people there, especially Pastor Chuck were always very nice. In fact, we see them every year at Steps for Life, and unlike your experience, they don’t shun us. On the contrary, they go out of their way to visit with us every year. When we started going BGBC, I don’t remember you ever greeting us or welcoming us to the church, so perhaps you were shunning us? <br /><br />I don't know why they are shunning you, but there must be a reason for it, since this is not what we experienced. Most of the people on this blog probably haven’t taken the time to hear the other side of the story. As I understand it, BGBC is alleging that you (or someone named in the lawsuit with you) called Dept. of Human Services on them. If that, and some of the other things they are accusing you of doing are true, then I can’t blame them for not wanting to talk to you. It looks like you have made every attempt to paint Chuck as a monster, and BGBC as an apostate church. And, you wonder why they don’t want to talk with you?<br /><br />It seems that you have been really upset by the way your friend was let go from being on staff at BGBC. Does that have anything to do with why you can’t simply find a new church, move on, and leave BGBC alone? Or, is it simply their stance on modesty that you are so highly offended by that you can’t let it go? If that is the case, there are plenty of other churches that couldn’t care less about modesty, why don’t you just go to one of those? Who was forcing you to go to BGBC anyway? If it was so unbearable, why didn’t you leave sooner? Why pass the blame onto someone else. Exam the Scriptures for yourself, and if you feel that the pastor or church is in error, go somewhere else. That doesn’t mean you have to spend the remainder of your life attacking them. <br /><br />Didn’t you, and the other two families start coming to BGBC after leaving another church (I thought I heard it was Southwest Bible Church)? Did you have the same experiences there? I would be interested in hearing your experiences there, as well as hearing what the people who knew you there have to say. <br /><br />Look, all I know is that there are two sides of a story, and you are not playing the role of a fair and balanced reporter. I hope that the people reading this blog are smart enough to read the other side of the story before making a judgment. If you have found a perfect church to join up in Washington, please don’t join it, as you would just ruin it. News flash, there are no perfect churches because they are made up of sinners. Unfortunately, we are all sinners (hopefully in the process of sanctification), and will be until Jesus returns. That means that we need to step it up, and show patience, love, grace, and mercy to others, especially those in the church. If you have a problem with others in your church that is insurmountable, then it is best simply to peaceably move on. I don’t see how trying to destroy Chuck and the rest of the people at BGBC is doing that. Perhaps if you would just let it go, they would drop the lawsuit? It could be a starting point of discussion, anyway. I would hope that levels heads would prevail, and the courts could be left out. I don’t see how this blog is helping, however.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-2142913748071135702012-05-28T19:24:27.885-07:002012-05-28T19:24:27.885-07:00This is the first time that I have heard about chu...This is the first time that I have heard about church members being expected to sign oaths of allegiance and non-disclosure agreements. Silly me, I always thought that belonging to a church involved mutual respect and mutual trust. I guess that I was wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-7071231908508958382012-05-27T09:32:35.280-07:002012-05-27T09:32:35.280-07:00To Barbara, I posted on the blog. An experience I ...To Barbara, I posted on the blog. An experience I had 2 years after leaving BGBC, and am presently being suedalthough have not been served. I don't believe it would have mattered where Julie Anne posted.<br />Bullies just bully and attempt to silence their victims. This is abusive.meaghannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-1533007732767677602012-05-26T16:55:52.749-07:002012-05-26T16:55:52.749-07:00everything you said is so true and because of that...everything you said is so true and because of that careless attitude of, 'God has forgiven me, so you have to also', more and more ppl are being driven away from christianity...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-84194984847278984672012-05-24T14:06:18.609-07:002012-05-24T14:06:18.609-07:00I'm glad you got that off your chest, RB. Now...I'm glad you got that off your chest, RB. Now your comment has me stewing and I think this will be part of a new post soon. This aspect must be discussed. Maybe that loss of sleep was not in vain. Stay tuned. Thank you for sharing your heart. This is good.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-45427365564126610272012-05-24T14:04:52.967-07:002012-05-24T14:04:52.967-07:00That is the exact verse that came to mind this wee...That is the exact verse that came to mind this weekend before the hearing. I love Micah 6:8. It is so good! <br /><br />I cannot control the "other" side, I can only be responsible for my words and actions. I want to continue to be humbly, to love mercy and do justly! <br /><br />Thank you!Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-55601021310186200562012-05-24T11:08:32.619-07:002012-05-24T11:08:32.619-07:00"Where there is no counsel, the people fall, ..."Where there is no counsel, the people fall, BUT in the multitude of counselors there is safety." Proverbs 11:14<br />"Bread gained by deceit is sweet to a man, BUT afterward his mouth will be filled with gravel. Plans are established by counsel; by wise counsel wage war." Proverbs 20:17-18<br />"Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; Lest the Lord sees it, and it displease Him, And He turn away His wrath from him." Proverbs 24:17<br />This is a war of powers and principalities, not flesh and blood. I am grateful you have counsel during this trying time, as do I. Who would want to be falsely accused or horrendous crimes against God and man~however I do believe there are 2 perceptions to the same reality. "Allegations" of abuse, makes me wonder why this comes up...if said individual would have made the moral and ethical call to DHS they would not have darkened his doorstep. Instead I see blaming and a war waged that is personal...there was abuse going on and the decision to not report it.<br />God will not be mocked, He will not leave us nor forsake us.<br />"He has shown you, O man, what is good;<br />And what does the Lord require of you<br />but to do justly,<br />To love mercy,<br />AND to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8<br />There have been attempts by godly men, pastors to bring this matter to an end and reconcile...but someone else has no desire for that to happen. Makes me wonder why, but I desire to walk humbly with my God and not shrink back. He will conquer and has conquered sin and death.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-14773255988966309912012-05-24T08:59:55.848-07:002012-05-24T08:59:55.848-07:00Julie Anne: I have meditated on this post and the ...Julie Anne: I have meditated on this post and the responses, as well as studying the Book of James as sets forth many benchmarks in this area.<br /><br />The retaliatory actions by Beaverton Grace Bible Church against you and your family, and to significant numbers of members of other Christian churches who have been arbitrarily and harshly "disfellowshipped", "excommunicated", "shunned", sued for alleged defamation, and mentally abused by totalitarian-focused church leaders, have deeply troubled me.<br /><br />I will not deny that your story, compounded by dozens of other stories of church abuse that I have begun learning about, has left me very worried about the possibility that my own church - which at this time seems to have a relatively "sane" approach to member relations - could at an unknown point in the future be "taken over" by devotees of ecclesiastical totalitarianism (which would be my polite characterization of the governance practiced at BGBC).<br /><br />I have actually started losing sleep at night lately worrying about the proliferation of extremely radical, dogmatic, in-your-face theology in American churches that underscores the notion that the decisions and teachings of a pastor and church elders cannot under any circumstances be questioned or challenged.<br /><br />Frankly, the whole topic of "abusive churches" is starting to raise some painfully difficult questions for myself, as to whether any Christian faith community is a "safe place" for learning and practicing basic discipleship skills as taught in the Bible.<br /><br />Maybe I'm over-reacting, but just had to get this off of my chest. -RBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-46536677344291239662012-05-24T08:21:45.242-07:002012-05-24T08:21:45.242-07:00Thank you, Sophia Grace!Thank you, Sophia Grace!Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-41732114085641199712012-05-24T08:21:05.255-07:002012-05-24T08:21:05.255-07:00Paul - this is soooo good! You are absolutely rig...Paul - this is soooo good! You are absolutely right. In order for a "truce", it would require me to lie and repent or recant whatever I have said, saying that it was false.<br /><br />I cannot lie about the truth. Everything that I have posted on the reviews/blog was true as I knew it based on information I had. I don't recall leaving negative reviews because if I have a problem with something, I try to get it resolved first. And then I would write a review that there was a problem, but the management handled it beautifully, so it actually becomes a positive review. I'm not a vindictive person. But when I saw the how horribly people were treated and how so many were walking away from their faith, something had to be done. <br /><br />There certainly was not going to be many people who would read a Google review about a church, but I thought if it helped one family to be more discerning and have more information before visiting, then at least they were forewarned. With the size of that church? Maybe 10 people??? But he couldn't leave my review alone and then lied about us being in church discipline. And it was obvious that this lie was spread to the congregation because Stephanie posted that we were in church discipline, too. That did not sit well with me. And look where we are today.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-91274599642736965692012-05-23T20:39:34.047-07:002012-05-23T20:39:34.047-07:00"Forgiveness is not trusting someone who has ..."Forgiveness is not trusting someone who has hurt you. And forgiveness is not neglecting justice for the oppressed."<br /><br />Hi Julie Anne, here is something I wrote about Mars Hill's call to reconciliation...along the same lines of what Debbie is saying<br /><br />http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-i-wont-be-answering-call-to.htmlMars Hill Refugehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16785265092964870117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-51211511342768405792012-05-23T20:30:03.633-07:002012-05-23T20:30:03.633-07:00David,
If what you and your wife have been through...David,<br />If what you and your wife have been through is as bad as you say it was, and you can see and understand what JulieAnne has been through, as you say you can, shouldn't you be just a tiny bit more patient with her and not so pushy push to get her to call a truce?<br />Right now there is no way she can do such a thing because she is the one being sued by her former pastor so the ball is in his court and until this thing gets BACK into the courtroom and before a judge (or unless her former pastor decides to cut the crud and knock it off!) her hands are tied.<br />What if there are people out there who never would have known their own situation had it NOT BEEN FOR JULIEANNES BLOG?!<br />From what I have read, there are countless others who have visited this site and gained a TON of information that they didn't have before; some of those people might now be able to see much clearer and actually be able to come up with a plan of 'escape' that they, along with their family can use to get out from a bad church..<br />TO say that this site is wrong or unnecessary could very well be like saying a womans shelter for abused women and children is wrong and unnecessary so please, for the love of GOD, QUIT asking her to call a truce or take this site down; you are NOT GOD, David, and YOU do NOT KNOW WHO might be benefiting from this site that you dislike so much~<br />Thank You!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-74578417654896479552012-05-23T20:29:11.795-07:002012-05-23T20:29:11.795-07:00I completely agree with you on this. It was an of...I completely agree with you on this. It was an off the cuff way to point out that quoting John MacArthur did not make something so. I also had an experience like Julie Anne's with a neo-calvinist church. So, please forgive the sarcasm but I have no respect for all the "big names" in the calvinist circles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-41619356934966614132012-05-23T20:22:14.212-07:002012-05-23T20:22:14.212-07:00Julie Anne, your reply here is very Christ-like, s...Julie Anne, your reply here is very Christ-like, so loving and grace-filled. I'm not a Christian, but I can fully appreciate behavior that reflects what the man Jesus would have displayed. I would have loved that man. Too bad religion has done so much harm to his name.Carolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07918419288660146429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-5992966225997138352012-05-23T17:42:12.061-07:002012-05-23T17:42:12.061-07:00David,
I have a question for you. Could it be po...David, <br /><br />I have a question for you. Could it be possible you are wrong? Could it be that Chuck is guilty of spiritual abuse, that it's not just a difference in doctrine, and therefore a truce is not possible?Jackienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-66575463314121883092012-05-23T17:38:12.813-07:002012-05-23T17:38:12.813-07:00Anonymous 1208, you explain the methodology issues...Anonymous 1208, you explain the methodology issues very well, especially for those of us who may be considered outsiders. Thank you.<br /><br />David, maybe you need to set up your own blog about your specific concerns. There are probably many who share your methodology concerns and would appreciate a forum for discussing them. It appears to be something you are very passionate about. <br /><br />I understand you desperately want Julie Anne's situation resolved to your satisfaction. God is at work here though, and I realize that may be uncomfortable for you. I am sorry.Jackienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-65196120191607903252012-05-23T15:22:04.843-07:002012-05-23T15:22:04.843-07:00The sheep are expendable? So sad. Yuck. You'...The sheep are expendable? So sad. Yuck. You're right, enough IS enough!Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-650527832065241342012-05-23T15:20:31.409-07:002012-05-23T15:20:31.409-07:00Thank you Steve. Great points here.Thank you Steve. Great points here.Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-58689188299921363872012-05-23T13:27:20.088-07:002012-05-23T13:27:20.088-07:00Barbara,
I appreciate your gracious responses. P...Barbara,<br /><br />I appreciate your gracious responses. Perhaps we can end this by exchanging some resources. These two are blog posts written by my fellow house church practitioner.<br /><br /><a href="http://subversive1.blogspot.com/search?q=THE+DISCIPLES+ON+LEADERSHIP+AND+HIERARCHY" rel="nofollow">THE DISCIPLES ON LEADERSHIP AND HIERARCHY</a><br /><br /><a href="http://subversive1.blogspot.com/search?q=church+in+Corinth+is+a+fascinating" rel="nofollow">WHAT IS A NEW TESTAMENT MODEL OF CHURCH LEADERSHIP?</a><br /><br />I've been a part of a home church fellowship for a little over two years now. There is no paid staff, and because we don't have a building, every penny collected goes to the poor. Because the church does not have The Pastor to look to for leadership, it is up to each individual to step up to the plate and take the initiative. It's been amazing see what people can do free of trappings of institutional church and authority.<br /><br />I am looking forward to hearing from you with resources. You have the last word.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-53933344486246585852012-05-23T12:26:10.943-07:002012-05-23T12:26:10.943-07:00I thank God for Julie Anne who is standing up for ...I thank God for Julie Anne who is standing up for all of us who have been severely harmed by spiritually abusive pastors and elders. Rape of a persons soul (which is what spiritual abuse is) is every bit as harmful, if not more so, than the physical rape of the body. There should be no 'truce' in court for a 'soul rapist', just like there is no 'truce' in court for a 'physical rapist'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-75771890583302524782012-05-23T12:15:37.485-07:002012-05-23T12:15:37.485-07:00And those are very good thoughts, Paul!And those are very good thoughts, Paul!Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-51444815831497764332012-05-23T12:08:48.035-07:002012-05-23T12:08:48.035-07:00I will hereon call myself Beloved in Recovery to a...I will hereon call myself Beloved in Recovery to assign a name to my comments.<br /><br />David, you seem to have the abuse in the Hyper Calvinist camp down pat. But that is only one camp. As told in my 6:38 response, abuse from authority is in much more than this hyper Calvinist camp. I don't see this blog as being about Julie's experience - that is simply the launch. This is about spiritual abuse. I would say that when Julie and her husband sought mediation, and her former pastor refused - that put the ball in his court. So it isn't what Julie and her former pastor need to do - but what her pastor needs to do. He has already been advised by MacArthur's church to drop the lawsuit. And he used MacArthur's church to sort of - justify himself (initially). Now he uses John Calvin, as per his press release. The ball is in his court. Julie is simply protecting herself legally by going to court to have the charges dropped. It isn't her against him. It is her protecting herself and others in response to his attacks. As an observer, that is how I see it.<br /><br />Attacking the methodologies (your bigger picture) would not do as much as I see Julie's blog doing. Your bigger picture is only a subset of a much bigger picture.<br /><br />As I mentioned, in the Charismatic circles, you have pastors or other leadership stating "God told me ..." In the Gothard churches, which go across the board in the denominations, you have an unquestioning YES to authority no matter what. The pastor is the last word. Period. I know plenty of Gothard churches that are not Calvinist. And not Charasmatic. That just covers a few instances. <br /><br />Basically, abuse comes from any pastor who wants to control his flock for financial purposes, narcissistic purposes (because he can and he deserves it), for an misguided understanding of the word of God, for whatever reason - he wants to control. He feels insecure about losing congregants. He feels like a "real" shepherd and builds a fence around a fence around a fence to keep his sheep in and the world out. But it is beyond anything God ever intended, and like the Pharisees, God would have harsh words for that shepherd. "You bind up heaven against men, and you're not even going in yourself!" "White washed sepulchres."<br /><br />I stand by what I said. There is a bigger picture. You see a subset of that picture very clearly, and it is valid. But there is so much more. And this blog deals with that, in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-82008144488541483492012-05-23T12:06:22.143-07:002012-05-23T12:06:22.143-07:00Julie Anne, I've never commented here, though ...Julie Anne, I've never commented here, though I've prayed for you. I just wanted to say: what a refreshing, grace-filled response. <br /><br />God bless you. (And you too, Anonymous!)<br /><br />- RenéAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com