tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post7908638603478242507..comments2023-04-15T01:34:35.989-07:00Comments on BGBC Survivors: False Teachers: The Hard Gospel and GraceJulie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-3739799720630110952012-12-07T17:17:41.228-08:002012-12-07T17:17:41.228-08:00It made me think of a Faith Tabernacle video I pos...<i>It made me think of a Faith Tabernacle video I posted a while back and you're right - the people really did egg on the pastor, getting him all riled up even more than he already was. It was like a tag team getting into an emotional spiritual frenzy. -- Julie Anne</i><br /><br />Invoking Godwin's Law for a moment, the same thing is visible in films of the Nuremberg Rallies and was commented on in an Allied Intelligence Profile in 1943 (and by Michael Jackson as an example of a performer working an audience). A.H. began his speeches slow and hesitant, only gradually warming up as the audience connected, then the two went synergistic and whipped each other into a common frenzy in some sort of feedback loop. The image of a ranting A.H. comes from late in the speeches when he'd been working the crowd (and the crowd was working on him) for a while.Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-77971478496723582232012-12-06T10:10:04.498-08:002012-12-06T10:10:04.498-08:00"The Devil sends errors in opposing matched p..."The Devil sends errors in opposing matched pairs. So that in fleeing one, we embrace the other." <br />-- either C.S.Lewis or G.K.Chesterton (from memory)Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-76256000744970073342012-12-06T10:08:26.557-08:002012-12-06T10:08:26.557-08:00I don't understand what the appeal is.
What ...<i> I don't understand what the appeal is. </i><br /><br />What C.S.Lewis called "The Lure of the Inner Ring". They're the Speshul Remnant Who Alone Are Right With God and Doing God's Work.<br /><br />Or at least what God would want if God Only Knew What Was REALLY Going On.Headless Unicorn Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-86836066646174941832012-12-06T09:09:07.297-08:002012-12-06T09:09:07.297-08:00Those are deep thoughts, Joel. Your last sentence...Those are deep thoughts, Joel. Your last sentence is spot on and I've had a draft post about that very topic. There is so much confusion about personal salvation in a church like this. I've never seen so much spiritual confusion in my life. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-23485633719859124182012-12-05T18:46:12.627-08:002012-12-05T18:46:12.627-08:00René Girard is a french anthropologist who did a l...René Girard is a french anthropologist who did a lot of work on what he calls mimetic theory.<br /><br />One of the people he worked with was a Catholic theologian named James Alison. There are a couple of quotes I ran across today.<br /><br />This was was a quote of Alison from Brian Maclaren.<br />"If you give people a common enemy you give them a common identity. If you take away their enemy you take away the crutch by which they know who they are."<br /><br />Another quote from Alison found here: http://www.jamesalison.co.uk/eng/texts.html<br />“The group identity that is built up by mutual regard is impervious to the regard of God. Or, stated differently, reciprocally given identity is a closed system, and it is only through undergoing a loss of reputation, which means a loss of identity, which means a certain form of death, that a gratuitously given identity can break through.”<br /><br />The effect of what he is saying is astounding to me. It is only when we loose that group identity through loss of reputation or other means that the identity that Christ gives us can appear.<br /><br />For example, by creating such a strong identity for the church by, as you state, "...our church was different than others because he preached a tough gospel message. It was implied that people in other churches would have difficulty getting through the narrow gate to heaven because their pastors preached what they wanted to hear, not what was necessary to get to heaven.", your former pastor was actually making it harder for the people in the church to have Christ plant his identity in them.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02202249781984033516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-9543376113301117392012-12-05T10:00:58.709-08:002012-12-05T10:00:58.709-08:00They do have more than just their family there, bu...They do have more than just their family there, but they are a small church - and a very powerful one as far as their exposure. It's amazing how the internet can make a small church seem large (case in point BGBC!). I looked up Fred Phelps - they have 13 kids. I know at least 2 of the sons have left the group. At least one of them has left church entirely. They do seem hateful. It's amazing that they have brought others in to join their church. I don't understand what the appeal is. <br />Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-1856043633869928622012-12-05T09:46:28.113-08:002012-12-05T09:46:28.113-08:00Right, Linda - there are false teachings on both s...Right, Linda - there are false teachings on both sides of the spectrum and that is why it is so confusing. We must be so careful to watch the fruit in the lives of church leaders. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-4993901069458369692012-12-05T09:07:42.803-08:002012-12-05T09:07:42.803-08:00But then again you have what is called the seeker ...But then again you have what is called the seeker friendly type church where your ears are being tickled by false doctrine that leads one into believing in wantom grace. That is, believing that as long as you say you believe in Jesus, you can continue to live in sin claiming the blood of Jesus. <br /><br />It is because of being saved we can manifest the evidence of such by the fruits that are sown. That is, works of the spirit and not of the flesh.Linda Pappasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-46817230379205934612012-12-05T08:23:32.693-08:002012-12-05T08:23:32.693-08:00Yes.. Westboro Baptist will certainly go down in h...Yes.. Westboro Baptist will certainly go down in history as one of the most hateful bunch. And they love hating. I may be wrong, but somewhere I read that Westboro is just one family. Not sure about that.<br /><br />Notice I did not say "Christian" but "bunch". This is probably the most radical of any so-called "church" that I have ever heard of in my life. I hope never to see another quite that far-out in luneyland.<br /><br />Sheep-Dognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-34385313517648823942012-12-05T08:02:50.550-08:002012-12-05T08:02:50.550-08:00Raymond, did you feel like you needed to take a sh...Raymond, did you feel like you needed to take a shower after watching all of that filth? I don't know how you did it. But I understand why. I agree with you that Hollywood would have difficulty keeping up. It is crazy. And what a very sad and profound thought that Burger King would have a better relationship with it's customers than Mega churches have with their people. <br /><br />It always comes back to love. Pastors who love their flock tend and care for them. They do not abuse. And they do not put themselves before their flock. <br />Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-3011177894846477302012-12-05T07:56:55.855-08:002012-12-05T07:56:55.855-08:00Sheep-Dog - That's an interesting idea that I ...Sheep-Dog - That's an interesting idea that I hadn't thought about much - that the church members themselves get a thrill out of feeling superior when comparing themselves to other "inferior" churches. I think you could be on to something. The pastor's drive to power trickles on down to the congregants. Interesting. But that is exactly what we see with Westboro Baptist folks, isn't it? There has to be something in it for the congregants, too, in order to remain.<br /><br />It made me think of a Faith Tabernacle video I posted a while back and you're right - the people really did egg on the pastor, getting him all riled up even more than he already was. It was like a tag team getting into an emotional spiritual frenzy. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-89646129992504954972012-12-05T07:31:55.161-08:002012-12-05T07:31:55.161-08:00SOMETIMES IT'S ABOUT GROUP MENTALITY:
People ...SOMETIMES IT'S ABOUT GROUP MENTALITY:<br /><br />People who love the "Hard Gospel" preaching probably want to hear it that way. If they really were opposed to that kind of preaching they could go elsewhere. But then I suppose some are so conditioned to the elitism that Jeff speaks of, that they are afraid to make a change. <br /><br />There is still that possibility that subconsciously these folks get a thrill out of feeling superior to all those bad old Christians in other churches. So they encourage their pastor to continue pouring out his BS on them....<br /><br />And they love it! They applaud when the pastor shouts the loudest and wipes the sweat from his forehead. It's on TBN. I watch it for 3 seconds and switch the channel. <br /> <br />Sheep-Dognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-2394633473738034652012-12-05T07:02:08.833-08:002012-12-05T07:02:08.833-08:00I have spent the last couple days just googling an...I have spent the last couple days just googling and reading about the many mega church Pastors that have reached celebrity status and it just amazed me at the amount of abuse, scandals, back stabbing, false accusations, real accusations, convictions, lies, greed, spending, hatred,killings, sex, divorce, adultry, bankruptcy, positions, titles, mansions, jets, tithes, power, money, resignations, reinstatement and the list goes on and on, taking place inside these ministries. Hollywood would have trouble scripting a soap opera to compete with what goes on in our churches everyday. And this is only the ones you can read about. McDonald and Burger King have a better relation than many of these Mega churches do. (and it's not only inside the mega churches) Raymondnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-15139306473382917352012-12-05T04:14:16.341-08:002012-12-05T04:14:16.341-08:00Julie: You said:"They were like clones of th...Julie: You said:"They were like clones of their pastor." Absolutely, they do not become Christlike but pastor like full of his hate for anyone not like him. This is not Christianity!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02169869536135058690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-84318603263388900282012-12-04T23:17:56.589-08:002012-12-04T23:17:56.589-08:00" . . . . risk becoming unloving people thems..." . . . . risk becoming unloving people themselves" You nailed it, Ken. We saw this when we ran into members at both court hearings and these same people that we went hiking with, worshiped together with, played volleyball with, shared meals together with were now filled with so much anger towards us. They were like clones of their pastor. <br /><br />And I hate to say it, but it reminded me of Fred Phelps and his clone followers (Westboro Baptist). <br /><br />You just don't forget about that kind of response - especially when it came from people you loved and cared about (and still do!). <br /><br />Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-80092979220104224902012-12-04T20:54:23.590-08:002012-12-04T20:54:23.590-08:00Thank you, Julie Anne. Your statement, "Ther...Thank you, Julie Anne. Your statement, "There was a sense among us that other pastors must not love their congregations the way ours did because our pastor preached the hard teachings. We were special ones to have this teaching, even though it meant a more difficult path" really rang a bell. Abusive-bully preachers often appeal to the old "this is gonna hurt me a lot more than it hurts you" vibe, suggesting that their harsh, unloving, bitter speech is supposed to be viewed by their listeners as being good for them! The result? Unloved church members who begin to mistake insult for blessing, and dogmatism for truth, and risk becoming unloving people themselves. Ugh. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-51159957795979130862012-12-04T15:28:54.062-08:002012-12-04T15:28:54.062-08:00Tom, it is that hurt that compelled me to speak ou...Tom, it is that hurt that compelled me to speak out. I could not stand it any longer. It is so destructive. <br /><br />These kinds of pastors are all about feeding their own egos and controlling others. They "use" the gospel and God and the Bible in a manipulative way to feed their hunger issues. Julie Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-89470608835865815422012-12-04T15:22:17.195-08:002012-12-04T15:22:17.195-08:00Julie:
It is truly sad but these pastors do not k...Julie:<br /><br />It is truly sad but these pastors do not know what real grace is. What a shame, their preaching hurts so many people.Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.com