A horrible and shocking thing has happened in this land—
the prophets give false prophecies, and the priests rule with an iron hand.
Worse yet, my people like it that way!
But what will you do when the end comes?
Jeremiah 5:30-31
Reader Rebecca Kvenvolden asks a great question and suggested it as a topic for a post. I think it's a great topic for discussion:
Rebecca KvenvoldenOctober 1, 2012 6:30 PM
Hey Julie Anne! would you consider a post/conversation about how we can serve our friends who are still in an abusive church? I posted a link to my facebook about mark driscoll, and was jumped all over by some of my friends who still attend MHC. I'm out of my mind with frustration as they just do NOT GET IT! It all flips back to ME and why "I'M" angry and sinful for exposing this pastor's sinful behavior! I'm SO frustrated by this, and i feel like God has given me a burden to be a help to others, but i keep getting kicked in the face and am really starting to get angry and bitter about it. Is there NO way to influence others? it seems so obvious to me now, but I too, was warned and totally blew it off, so ??? ugg.
It's very difficult to watch friends and loved ones in a bad church situation when we can see clearly what is going on. What do you think? Have you tried to help friends who are in an abusive church? Did it work? What did you do? How can we help our friends who are "stuck" in abusive churches?
”Spiritual abuse occurs when someone in a position of spiritual authority, the purpose of which is to ‘come underneath’ and serve, build, equip and make God’s people MORE free, misuses that authority placing themselves over God’s people to control, coerce or manipulate them for seemingly Godly purposes which are really their own.” – Jeff Van Vonderen
Julie Anne,
ReplyDeleteI struggle with this constantly. In my area enough people know my story so that I get a lot of questions as their eyes start to open. The only answer I've come up with is that each situation is different. I need to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me as to whether I should speak up or to keep my big mouth shut. When He wants me to speak I also need Him to put the words in my mouth. In the past I have found myself acting like a fundy while I'm warning fundies about fundamentalism (oops). I've found that a lot of times they still have hero worship for the very person that is or has abused them.
I am also finding that there are Blogs that deal with spiritual abuse (like this one) that I can recommend with confidence.
Julie Anne, keep up the good work. God is using you and others (like TWW) to bring truth and light to some pretty dark corners.
Thanks and my prayers are with you.
Hi Al: Great response. Boy, I can relate to this: In the past I have found myself acting like a fundy while I'm warning fundies about fundamentalism (oops).
DeleteThat is an easy trap to get into. In our zeal to rescue, we can trample over people the same way they trampled over us.
I have definitely changed my opinion on this topic as I have learned more about abuse.
Speak the truth in love then pray for their eyes to be opened..trust that God will. And above all else, LOVE them in any way you can. I find the Word is truth and sets His children free indeed. Many of my family, friends who had left said church did this for me, and God has led me into a healthy loving fold.
ReplyDeleteMeaghan - - I think you nailed on one of the key issues I have learned in this process. People will only hear what they want to hear. You can tell someone the truth until you both are blue in the face- - - but if they do not have ears to hear and their hearts are not receptive, they simply won't hear. God can open their eyes, hearts, and ears. That is definitely a good place to start - asking God to soften hearts.
DeleteWhat I have found is that the wolf that is dressed in sheeps clothing will always be a wolf. When someone in the flock exposes the fact that he is a wolf he just rearranges his sheeps clothing to cover up that which might have been exposed and the majority of the sheep never know the difference. That sheep or sheeps that exposed the fact that indeed he is a wolf are quickly eliminated from the flock. There are even some sheep that see the ugly fangs but are too afraid of leaving the flock because of what might lie on the other side of the hill. They are just like sheep, don't look any further than the sheep next to them and do as they do. Never raising their head above the flock to see exactly where the lead sheep (wolf) is leading them. Jesus couldn't have used a better animal to illustrate his church. Sheep have to travel in flocks to survive and the wolf is the sheeps #1 enemy. So when a wolf has gained entry into a flock of sheep. His number one goal is to satisfy his appetite. This has been gone on for thousands of years in the wild and they only way to protect a flock of sheep is to eliminate the wolf.
ReplyDeleteSpoken as one who completely understands the system - it still sends shivers down my spine.
DeleteSo, Raymond, I see the sheep/wolf system you describe, but I'm not seeing a way to help one of those sheep if I'm on the outside. I know your personal abuse story and how you and Eric got out - with a great, great price. Do you think there is a way to reach those who are stuck in the system - - - to save them from having to pay such a price?
Have you ever seen a sheep being attacked by a wolf, turn on the wolf and attack the wolf. It don't happen. Real sheep are stupid animals and are easy prey for the wolf when he is dressed in sheep clothing. But when a sheep sees a wolf for what he really is, he runs from him. Sometimes it takes awhile but when the wolf's sheep skin camouflage becomes blood soaked from the continued casualties of the flock, the remaining sheep learn to run. If you are a sheep and wondering if your Pastor is a sheep like you, check to see what he is eating. Is he eating grass like you are do you see evidence that he is eating meat. Remember grass don't bleed, so if there is any sign of blood, know that he is not a sheep.
DeleteRaymond - That's a really good illustration once again.
DeleteSo, how does that sheep finally see the wolf for who he is? What is your opinion of this - do you think it is because someone from the outside told him? Or did he discover it on his own?
Of course you know I have my own ideas on this topic, I'm just curious to see if your conclusions match up with mine. We've both been burned by a wolf. We both have seen the destruction and both have hearts for the blind sheep and of course would love to rescue them all.
Very seldom does someone on the inside listens to someone from the outside. Usually they have already aquired a taste for the kool-aide and wll argue to defend the flavor. I think it's really the Holy Spirit that exposes the truth and sometimes it takes years for someone to take action. I know by my own experience I have straight up told others that things being done at the church were in violation of the law and not one person acted even the least bit concerned but only commented that if anything illegal is going on, whoever was responsible would one day have to answer to God. People don't want to know the truth if it affects their routine or their comfort zone. Again just like a flock of sheep, as long as the grass is green they keep their heads down and follows the other sheep or what looks likes another sheep. The flock gets so big that if one or two or three or even more turn up missing, they are not even noticed. Other stray sheep quickly fill the empty spots to supply the appetite of the wolf that walkes freely among the flock dressed in his sheep clothing.
DeleteBelow is a discription of the natural behavior of the domestic sheep copied straight from google. Again you can see why Jesus used sheep as an example of todays church. Does any of this resemble what is going on in todays churches. Notice which sheep are first to feed at the trough.
DeleteIn displaying flocking, sheep have a strong lead-follow tendency, and a leader often as not is simply the first sheep to move. However, sheep do establish a pecking order through physical displays of dominance. Dominant animals are inclined to be more aggressive with other sheep, and usually feed first at troughs.
From the same google search you can see the natural behavior of a wolf. Again you can see why this animal was used by Jesus to illustrate it's relationship to the sheep and the church. Do you have any wolves in your life?
DeleteWolves are highly territorial animals, and generally establish territories far larger than they require to survive in order to assure a steady supply of prey. Territory size depends largely on the amount of prey available.
The stalk: The wolves attempt to conceal themselves as they approach their prey. As the gap between the wolves and their prey closes, the wolves quicken their pace, wag their tails, and peer intently, getting as close to their quarry as possible without making it flee. I think we all know what comes next but for most it's too gruesome to discribe.
Thanks, Raymond. The sheep/wolf analogy is quite remarkable in light of what we have experienced. So, for Rebecca's question, it makes it even more complicated because the sheep/wolves really have their own thing going on and us outsiders do not really have a lot of influence in their affairs. That makes it very difficult for us on the outside looking in and trying to be a help or influence to the blind sheep.
DeleteOne final google search to conclude the sheep and wolf discussion. That would be the position and duty of the shepherd.
DeleteThe duty of shepherds was to keep their flock intact and protect it from wolves and other predators.
As you can see the shepherd is not one of the sheep but someone that keeps the flock in intact and protects the flock from the wolf and other predators. That would have to be someone that is of higher intelligance than the sheep and also able to spot and expose any threat to the sheep. In todays churches the Pastor tries to take this role and place themselves above the sheep(congregation). The problem with this is that in reality he himself is only a sheep (or a wolf in sheep clothing). There is no possible way that he can know all the sheep and thus there is no way he can keep the flock intact. There is only one true Shepherd that can know all the sheep and keep the flock intact, and that is Jesus. This is why todays churches are turning into toxic and abusive sheep farms. The flock has moved away from the protection and guidance of the true Shepherd and are following other sheep that might or might not be leading the flock in the right direction. So you need to stop and look at who you are following and if he looks like a sheep, smells like a sheep and acts like a sheep, he is probably a sheep or he could be a wolf in sheep clothing. Say something to make him smile, if you see fangs, thats a dead giveaway. Otherwise check to make sure where he is leading you lines up with the words spoken by the real true Shepherd, Jesus, and if it don't run as fast as your little hooves will carry you and find a flock that is following the Great Shepherd. Otherwise you take a chance of becoming lamb chops for the wolf you are following.
Raymond- what a blessing you are- thank you so much!
DeleteYes, totally agree with the thought of speaking the truth in love as well as being sensitive to who and when one should speak. If people don't smell the coffee yet, then they just don't get it. You will come across as a 'trouble maker' and they will circle the wagons around their leader.
ReplyDeleteIt may take a period of time for each person/couple to 'become aware' and then disentangle themselves from a toxic system. You can be there for them at that time as they will go through the valley of aloneness and disillusionment and will need some friends around them to help them walk through this rough season.
Unfortunately, when someone tries to alert church pals in a toxic church system, then 'they' and not the leader are branded as being a 'troublesome' or rebelious person.
You might be interested in two new articles on my Church Exiters website: 'What Spiritual Abuse Is and is Not' and 'Churches--With Troublesome People'. It is important for everyone, leaders and congregants alike, to grasp what spiritual abuse is and the people who have experienced it and distinguish this difference between the issue of 'troublesome people'--who happen to be found in most churches.
Again, dealing with people still in a questionable church situation is a spiritual battle. There may be opportunities to present one's reasons for leaving and explain what the unhealthy leadership issues are, but there is a need to love, pray, and leave the rest, the timing, to God's Spirit.
Paul gave an admonition to Timothy in 1 Tim. 6:11, 12 about what to flee from and what to pursue. He was urged to looked after his own faith by fighting for it and by grasping the magnitude of his calling to eternal life.
Thank you, Barb, for your wise words. I hope people will avail themselves to your website, book, and articles. I know your heart is to help those of us who have been spiritually abused to get on the road to healing. You've been a great friend and encourager to me these past months. Thank you! ~ja
DeleteNot criticizing anyone here, since I don't know the conversations, but generally speaking I think that asking a person questions is a good way that is less confrontational than just "telling them". Like asking someone, "what do you think about such-and-such? What about when the Bible says this-and-that?" They may have a pat answer, but they may start thinking because they haven't been "told what to do". Just my 2 cents. :-)
ReplyDeleteShannon - That is really good - - because people normally don't want to be told that what they are doing is wrong. If they have to think to respond to a question, they might "own" it better, having more impact on them personally. That was a good $.02. Thanks!
DeleteJulie Anne,
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of what Raymond says above. In my experience, one needs to be passionate about the reasons for leaving before officially being told not to come back. In the group we were a part of, it is often stated that the only reason others are to speak to one who left the church is to bring that person to repentance and back into the fold. If it is found they were speaking with this person for another reason, they could also be disciplined by the leadership. Excommunication (or whatever name a church wants to call it) is not only meant for the one who has left the fold. It also serves as a warning for those who would dare to question the leadership.
Unfortunately, for too many people who are involved in these types of groups, they aren't going to believe "bad reports" until similar things happen to them. When it happens to another church member, it's only gossip. When it happens to you, that's reality.
Matthias - I think you are nailed it. I have so many things I could write on this topic. Your last paragraph is sooooo true. Sometimes the wake-up call only happens when there is a personal cost involved. Shunning seemed to be a big wake-up call in our former church.
DeleteFor me the most difficult reality is that most will not leave on their own. I'm not an advocate of kidnapping and reprogramming, but I do understand the passion behind it. There's both an urgency and a helplessness that we painfully feel when we care. That being said, we do have some things going for us. First of all, I believe for most of those trapped in an abusive church there is a voice in them, however much the "leader" tries to quiet it that says, "something isn't right." We need to find ways to free that voice. I agree with Shannon that questions are powerful here. Secondly, by patiently loving we show, rather than tell, that what is said about us isn't true. It takes time, but our love and patience do have a power we shouldn't underestimate. Finally, as others have mentioned, we have the Holy Spirit. For this reason we need to pray more than talk.
ReplyDeleteSo beautifully expressed, Craig. I know for me there was such a painful yearning of wanting to rescue, to let them all know everything I discovered, etc - it was from the depths of my heart, but because of the shunning, it would have fallen on deaf ears. Love seems to be an underlying theme I've been reading (and it is also what I experienced that helped me), it is a supernatural love because we are loving people who don't want to accept our love and what we have to offer. But we have to trust that God will do the work in their hearts.
DeleteThanks everyone for answering my question. AMAZING answers, all of you, but i particularly like the wolf/sheep analogy.. it makes so much sense.
ReplyDeleteI think i'm getting to the point where i'm just plain realizing that some friends really aren't friends. I'm so sick of being accused of having a crappy attitude and sinning whenever i'm NOT happy about losing all my friends and everything social i'd come to know. I mean if someone came in and robbed my house and set it aflame, would I be sinful for being sad about that?! Of course not! would i struggle with forgiveness for the person who betrayed me? Sure. I'm human! You can bet no one would be saying, "Oh Rebecca, why can't you just LET IT GO! you'll find a new house , what's the probablem! you really need to repent!" Becuase i have to say, emotionally, i feel like my house has been pillaged and set aflame, and i don't know how to just make it go away. Thank you so much Julie Anne for being here for us, despite your own pain and allowing us to be human here.
Rebecca, If you feel unhappy about losing your friend is a sin then Jesus would have sinned when he was arrested. He had to be pretty sad that those that followed him for 3 years suddenly were no where to be found. In fact Peter even denied knowing him. So if you are feeling those same emotions, know that Jesus felt the same way when he was lead to die on the cross. You can find plenty of comfort here and make new friends. But rest knowing that the only real friend that counts has not let you. Your new friend Raymond
DeleteYeah, what ^^^^^Raymond said!! Wonderful response, Raymond!! So true!!!
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