Friday, July 6, 2012

No Gossip Allowed in My Church!





Great Is Thy Faithfulness
Summer and winter, and spring-time and harvest,
Sun, moon and stars in their courses above,
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love.
Great is Thy faithfulness! Great is Thy faithfulness!
Morning by morning new mercies I see;
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me!



I hope you will indulge me with a slight diversion.  I went for a walk this morning and saw this . . . .




and a little further down the path where there were more trees and greenery, and an island in the middle of the river where birds congregate, I heard this:


Check this out on Chirbit



(ok, I'm a dork, but I love that loud squawk at the end). 

It's been a year since we have moved from the land of green and never-ending rain in the Portland, OR area to the land of dry desert (only 4 hours away!) in eastern Washington.  I love lush green and could never imagine living in the desert, but now when I look at the above photo, I see beauty - immense beauty, and I'm so thankful to be at a place where I can look around and see this.  I've experienced all four seasons here and it is a different kind of beauty than what I'm used to, but it is breathtaking to me now.  I see God's wonderful creation, both in the lush green and now in the desert.  God is not limited to a church building (and the people said AMEN!).  I want to encourage those who are struggling with God and how to find Him, to take a step back and connect with Him in safe places, on a morning walk, in song, in your relationships, etc.  Find what feels safe and rest there for a bit.  



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,  because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,  because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 1:18-21
Once again, the comments have led the discussion to this topic and I think it's important to dig a little deeper and talk about gossip as it relates to spiritually abusive churches.  

Gossip is an important topic in any church, actually in any environment, work, school, etc.  The bible is clear that it can tear down relationships and cause great division.  There are numerous verses on the topic, but here are a few:

“a perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends” (Proverbs 16:28)

 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,  slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,  foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.  Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.  Rom 1:29-32

And here we read specifically about women as “gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to” (1 Timothy 5:12-13).  Ouch!

Dictionary's definition of gossip:  casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true

The author of this article breaks the word gossip into six categories:

These are the 6 things that fall under the category of gossip. If anyone who calls themselves a person who loves the Lord, sings the praises of God, worships in fellowship with other believers, pray, read the Word of God, say they love God and at the same time engage in gossip and everything that goes along with gossip,(busybody, talebearer, slander, evil whispering, evil speaking and backbiting), is practicing hypocrisy therefore making that person a hypocrite! 
 
Yes, there is no doubt, gossip is a serious problem and we must be careful to not get caught in the trap. 

Early this morning, I approved a one-word comment:  "Gossip".  I was in bed when I approved it and unable to see the context, so my brain went on a wild goose chase trying to figure out the context.  I found the context here and it made sense:


 * * * * * * *
"on Saturday night, we got the call from an elder that we were not welcome to come to church there anymore." Every time you post this I get the creeps. In our case there was a Saturday night phone call from the same "elder" who called you that effectively ended our time at the so-called church. Current attenders, be cautious if you get a Saturday night call from this elder! You may want to record it for legal reasons.
I'm not sure who you are, but I'll bet we could have an interesting time sharing creepy stories.


Gossip

To Anonymous--
Not gossip, truth. Gossip is what comes from a certain pulpit where, instead of preaching the gospel of grace, members and former members of the church are railed against, by name, with lies and half-truths (again, lies).

THAT is gossip. It's not excused because it comes from a pastor or from the pulpit. Imagine where that church would be if he worried less about others--and himself--and more about Christ and His flock.

 People sharing true experiences is not gossip.


* * * * * * 
Will's comment was spot on!  The no-gossip rule ties in clearly with the "no-talk" rule (which is defined here in the Definition Section).  You see, if people were allowed to talk and share their experiences, enough people would have seen a pattern and this could have been dealt with before it got this far.  Instead, we have a cycle of "don't gossip", with pastor/elders reading scriptures like Hebrews 13:7 (Remember those who rule over you...) to hush us.  Bottom line is our talk was controlled.  We did not have liberty to discuss truths that we experienced freely because it was labeled as gossip.  

Truth sometimes is divisive.  It doesn't mean it is always gossip.  We need to be careful about that.  What is the intention of our heart when we share our experiences?  Is it in anger or malice?  I know my intention for going public.  It was to say:  YO!!!  There's a problem here.  God is not being honored in this situation, and in fact, God is being trampled upon by false teachings, hearts are turning AWAY from God, HELP!!!!

Will addresses something that I hadn't considered regarding gossip from the pulpit.  He frequently mentioned current conflicts from the pulpit (between him and other "so-called" pastors, etc,), so it would only make sense that he would be bringing this lawsuit to the forefront of conversation at the church.  Look at what he posted publicly about me and others:
Chuck O'Neal ‎ - Nov 18, 2009
JulieAnne's Destructive Slander Continues To Whom It May Concern: Almost a year ago JulieAnne and her husband were Biblically put out of Beaverton Grace Bible Church with a group of families and individuals that were engaged in ongoing divisive slander. After attending many churches and leaving them in a similar manner, the group has now splintered. Many of those in this factious group no longer attend church at all. It is sad to see that JulieAnne remains steadfast in her destructive behavior. For obvious reasons we exhort you to heed the following Scriptures:  Prov 6:16-19 16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And ONE WHO SOWS DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN. Prov 16:28 A perverse man SOWS STRIFE, And A WHISPERER SEPARATES THE BEST OF FRIENDS. Prov 26:20 Where there is NO WOOD, THE FIRE GOES OUT; And where there is NO TALEBEARER, STRIFE CEASES. Rom 16:17-18 NOW I URGE YOU, BRETHREN, NOTE THOSE WHO CAUSE DIVISIONS AND OFFENSES, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and AVOID THEM. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. Titus 3:9-11 But AVOID FOOLISH DISPUTES, genealogies, CONTENTIONS, and strivings about the law; for THEY ARE UNPROFITABLE AND USELESS. 10 REJECT A DIVISIVE MAN AFTER THE FIRST AND SECOND ADMONITION, 11 KNOWING THAT SUCH A PERSON IS WARPED AND SINNING, being self-condemned. It is our prayer that there will be no more wood thrown upon the fire of contentiousness, strife, discord, and division. It is our prayer that the fire will go out and that the body of Christ at BGBC will be able to press on “in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel” (Phil. 1:27). It is our prayer that those who started the fire and have cut, stacked, and stoked much wood upon it, will repent, for God's glory and their blessing. If you have any questions, please contact the pastor and elders. May we be evermore convinced of mankind's sinfulness and of our need for God's amazing grace through faith in His beloved Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. God STILL has the whole world and His Church in His very capable hands. For Christ and His Church, Pastor Chuck O'Neal, Elder Dave Loynes, Elder Dale Weaver

 and this is another review:

DEFAMATION IS A CRIME: It is convenient and crafty to wage a three and a half year war of reviling defamation in which you and those with you ACCUSE THE PASTOR AND CHURCH OF HORRIFIC CRIMES AGAINST GOD AND MEN, to then hide behind 1 Cor. 6:7-8.

FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS JULIEANNE AND THOSE WITH HER, HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN PUBLIC, CHURCH TO CHURCH, AND WORLD WIDE WEB DEFAMATION IN A SELFISH WILLINGNESS TO DISCREDIT GOD, HARM THE CHURCH, HARM WIVES, HARM CHILDREN, AND HARM THE TESTIMONY OF CHRIST'S GOSPEL. 

IN MATTERS OF GREAT DAMAGE TO OURSELVES OR FAMILIES, WE MAY USE LAWFUL MEANS TO RIGHT OURSELVES. WE ARE NOT BOUND TO SIT DOWN AND SUFFER THE INJURY TAMELY, WITHOUT STIRRING FOR OUR OWN RELIEF;

Anonymous is convinced that I am a gossip.  If the above was posted publicly, I can only imagine what is said to the remaining church privately and in church meetings to the congregation.  If this is what that congregation sees and perhaps hears on an ongoing base from the pastor, is it any wonder that I get "divisive" comments on my blog from time to time.  These comments are meant to challenge me.  The people in the church have come along side him in his thinking and I and "those with me" are considered the enemy.  


In the context above, the Anonymous poster felt that sharing our creepy stories is gossip.  Stories that we might share with one another may be hard to hear, is uncomfortable, but it is the truth and not gossip.  I am speaking the truth in the most loving way I know because I care and love that body of Believers.  I care for their souls.  And believe it or not, I have love for the pastor as well.  The people of that church need a pastor who cares for their souls, not one who goes after former members in creepy ways.  Going after former members is destructive and a distraction to the real responsibility of a pastor.  It must be stopped.  So until it is stopped, those of us who have left must continue speaking the truth in love - - - which is NOT gossip. 






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Tuesday, July 3, 2012

Creepy Pastors and Churches Using Creepy Stalking Control Tactics








There have been a few stories of spiritual abuse in the news lately.  A kind reader sent me this article from The Christian Post:


Spiritual Abuse: Shepherds – or Fleecers – of God's Flock?

This article starts by discussing the abuse of gaining members' funds through unlawful methods in "Financial Empowerment Seminars." The rest of the article discusses spiritual abuse, including a list of questions that might help one to determine if they are in a spiritually abusive church. This might be a good article to send to someone who wants to learn the basics of spiritual abuse.

Here is the list of questions from the article:


If you are trying to determine whether or not a particular group may be spiritually abusive, consider the following questions:
___ Do they exalt someone as an irrefutable authority in the group?
___ Do they demand your absolute allegiance?
___ Do they discourage your questions?
___ Do they shame people publicly?
___ Do they insist on making major decisions in your life?
___ Do they have a long list of rules related to dress, hairstyle, diet or activities?
___ Do they judge those who do not keep their list of rules?
___ Do they consider themselves the "only true church"?
___ Do they consider those who leave their group "apostates," "backsliders" or        "doomed"?
___ Do they teach that godly people should give more financially so that they will receive more?


Over the weekend, I met with some people who had been a part of a cult for over a decade and we shared stories.  As soon as they left their cult, they were free and clear to start their new lives.  The difference with our story is that when we left, we were not free and clear.
I've mentioned how the pastor and elders came to our house unannounced a few weeks after we left with an undisclosed recording device demanding information = creepy.

Pastors who are doing God's work, tending the sheep, preaching the Word do not have a paranoid personality.  They know there will be disgruntled people, but that is par for the course.  They continue the race set before them, walking in obedience, trying to do God's work.  They are not preoccupied with their reputation, their image.  Their focus is not on themselves, but on others, helping them along their paths.  

In our case, the two defendants (who were eventually dismissed) were accused of posting anonymous comments on the  Suspicious Berean website.  The date of the post is May 3, 2010.  This was approximately 1-1/2 yrs after the defendants had left the church.  These first two anonymous posts were part of the original defamation lawsuit:

You should be suspicious of him because Chuck O'Neal is a wolf. He rails again things such as Psychology yet if you look at his education you'll find that he himself has a degree in Psychology?! Plus he runs "his" church like a cult controlling the flock with legalistic rules. He also heavily plagiarizes the messages of others or books in his "sermons" yet never gives credit where it is due. He controls his flock with an iron fist and if someone leaves the congregation for any reason he tells the flock not to speak to or associate with those who leave the congregation. He is a wolf and misleading the people of this congregation and please be warned! There's more to be said but again, please be warned that Chuck is a wolf and if you look a little more thoroughly into his practices as a self proclaimed "pastor" you'll see he's a wolf.
  
Yes, He's definitely a wolf.

(Side note:  I just noticed something.  The part about "plagiarism" was never listed in the lawsuit.  I wonder why not?)

Why our former pastor decided to sue those particular people, I will never know - the former defendants do not remember posting the comments and say the wording doesn't sound like them.   But anyway, how would the pastor have found those comments on a random blog unless he or someone was doing internet searches?  And why would any pastor even be searching for himself on the internet?   For what purpose?


“For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.”  Rom. 12:3

Notice the next two comments, people come to the pastor's defense telling the previous commenters to "repent" and are threatened with God's wrath.  


Jeremiah urged Israel to submit to the coming invaders and was thrown into a well and called all kinds of names. Jeremiah was a faithful prophet. Pastor Chuck faithfully teaches God's holy Word and is a Godly man. Shame on those who attack the Lord's servants. Please repent and be of one mind, striving together for the Gospel of peace!

Book of Romans Ch. 13 is a good guideline for what to do with government - obey or rail against. It's good to listen to God. Pastor Chuck ONeal is a Godly man and fine teacher. Please repent before God's wrath is kindled against you (Psalm 2:12) when slandering God's people (Proverbs 6:16-19

It makes me wonder how the above commenters found the blog to begin with.  Did they hear about the comments from the pastor, or were they, too, searching the pastor's name.  Are they part of the "inside circle"?  Keep reading.  More creepy behavior here.  I just don't get this business about doing internet searches on pastors unless there is a problem . . . whoa  . . . that's it . . . . unless there's a problem.   They are trying to hide a problem.  What problem?  Hmm, perhaps the ones that I have been exposing? 

In spiritually abusive churches, there is a preoccupation with the image of the leader and the church.  The leader will go to great lengths to protect his image and also those close in his inner circle will be on guard to protect that image, too.  It is likely that one of the inner circle found the Suspicious Berean link and then forwarded it to the pastor.  The people in the inner circle feed the pastor's ego and will go to great lengths to defend and protect him.  They have a strong bond and most likely get preferential treatment or some kind of emotional reward for feeding the ego.  The pattern is they will report any kind of suspicious activity to the leader, any dissension in the group, anyone who may not be fully on board.


"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
Note that it doesn't say, I'm the good shepherd and I consume my time with my reputation, my name on the world wide web, and stalking former church members.  


I'll mention a personal example of the workings of the inner circle.  I played the piano and sang with the praise and worship team.  We had a meeting with the elders earlier in the week and left on a positive note.  On Thursday night at practice, someone mentioned that they had heard we might be leaving.  Discussion ensued and I acknowledged we were having difficulties at the church, had been meeting with pastors/elders, but we hadn't officially made up our minds.  There was heated discussion.  Someone urged me to have another meeting and I said I would be willing to do that (even though we had already met over 11 hours with pastor/elders).  That is how the Praise and Worship meeting ended.  However, two days later, on Saturday night, we got the call from an elder that we were not welcome to come to church there anymore.  Someone from the Praise and Worship team was most likely in that inner circle and reported our conversation to the pastor and perhaps felt that the Smith family's presence was a threat to the pastor's reputation and not worth the risk.  Better to have us gone than remain.

We were fine with that decision, ultimately.  I especially was thrilled as I had wanted to leave much earlier.  My husband hadn't seen the things that I had seen, but now the answer was made for us.  I thought we were free.  We were not free, however.  

I have had reports that this blog is being stalked (::::waving hi to creepy stalkers::::).   Obviously, the Google reviews were stalked as my reviews were being removed time and again.  It would be very likely that my Google reviews were discussed either on Wednesday night meetings or between Sunday school and the church service.  I remember him discussing people who challenged him on his blog. This would be normal behavior for him.

The blog is obviously stalked or else Meaghan wouldn't be on the lawsuit.  We have many more reports of stalking behavior of which I am unable to disclose here, but let's just say it's all CREEPY behavior.  BTW, "Creepy" was one of the words I was being sued for - it was plastered all over the media (and it made me laugh).  It was dismissed from the lawsuit, so now I have the freedom to say it:  creepy, creepy, CREEPY.  Yes, this behavior is completely creepy.

As a musician, I feel we must break for a creepy music segue.  This music really gives me the creeps, not in in the scary sense, but the creepy sense.  See what I mean:







People say if you notice problems in a church or feel the pastor is abusive, just leave.  In our case, leaving does not make the problems go away - sometimes it makes them worse.    

In our case, I believe he uses fear to threaten.  That is why we don't see many people using their real names on my blog.  I was threatened legal action before my blog went online = control tactic.  After the blog was online, when Meaghan commented here and used her real name, she was sued = control tactic.  The threat is:  if you post any negative message on Julie Anne's blog, you, too, will be sued = control tactic.  That's creepy and scary and a control tactic.  Who wants to have to fork over big $$, secure a lawyer, give up hours of time, energy, defending yourself?  It's a bit taxing on sleep, emotions as well, I might add. 

There is much more creepiness going on behind the scenes, I can assure you, but this kind of stalking behavior is one aspect of spiritually abusive churches that cause a lot of pain and even fear for former members.  







Great verses to meditate on when dealing with creepers:  Psalm 118

Oh let those who fear the LORD say,
         “His lovingkindness is everlasting.”
From my distress I called upon the LORD;
         The LORD answered me and set me in a large place.
The LORD is for me; I will not fear;
         What can man do to me?
The LORD is for me among those who help me;
         Therefore I will look with satisfaction on those who hate me.
It is better to take refuge in the LORD
         Than to trust in man.
It is better to take refuge in the LORD
         Than to trust in princes.
All nations surrounded me;
         In the name of the LORD I will surely cut them off.
They surrounded me, yes, they surrounded me;
         In the name of the LORD I will surely cut them off.
They surrounded me like bees;
         They were extinguished as a fire of thorns;
         In the name of the LORD I will surely cut them off.
You pushed me violently so that I was falling,
         But the LORD helped me.
The LORD is my strength and song,
         And He has become my salvation.
The sound of joyful shouting and salvation is in the tents of the righteous;
         The right hand of the LORD does valiantly.
The right hand of the LORD is exalted;
         The right hand of the LORD does valiantly.
I will not die, but live,
         And tell of the works of the LORD.

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Saturday, June 30, 2012

Spiritual Abuse Blogs: Christ-Honoring?






Flowers in my neighborhood


This has been an interesting week or so, none like we've ever had before on this blog, that is for sure.   (If you are just coming to the blog for the first time, we had some great discussion in the three previous posts which are linked at the bottom of this post.)  Because I had already dealt with Mr. Butler on this topic on his own blog, I had an idea what responses to expect from him when I made a post highlighting his comment.  I thought long and hard before doing it. 

During that time, I received a handful of e-mails from people expressing strong emotions and opinions, some even asking me to move along to another topic.  Other e-mails from people said they were very uncomfortable and the blog did not feel safe anymore.  Some even told me that the condescending attitude and harshness was triggering them - reminding them of their painful experiences.  I intentionally allowed the topic to continue and did not put up more posts for a purpose (also allowing time for Fred to answer questions).  

Some of you have not exposed your spiritual abuse story to anyone.  It has remained private.   I used the dialogue between Fred and me to illustrate a point.    One aspect I hope you have been able to pick up is discerning who you can trust.  It's so important to have support, but clearly, some people are not willing to to hear, do not want to hear, do not want to believe your story.  They instead want to focus on other side issues unrelated to your story:  sin in your life, where was your husband, why you weren't in the Word, etc.  

Let your speech always be with grace,
as though seasoned with salt,
so that you will know how you should respond
to each person
Colossians 4:6

Those grumblers and complainers Fred spoke about probably do have sin issues that need to be dealt with.  But in cases of true abuse, the abuse was not incurred because of our sins, but the sins of the perpetrator.  People who believe that we are the cause of the abuse are not safe people.   It will be a risk to share with them and we will have to decide if it's worth the battle.  For others, who suffered deep abuse, dealing with someone who rejects their story could be devastating emotionally and can cause symptoms of PTSD (flashbacks, very bad memories), so those folks need to be very prudent in their awareness of what is happening in conversations, looking for clues to determine if a person is safe or not. 


The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.  
 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.  
 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice. 
Proverbs 8:13-15


I want to open it up for discussion, but with a couple rules and this might prove to be challenging.   But it's worth it and I think a lot of you will agree with me.  Fred Butler is absolutely right about one thing (and I'm actually thankful that he underscored this very loudly and clearly for me).  If you search the internet and read spiritual abuse blogs, a lot of them are complaining and whining and seem to wallow in misery, getting nowhere.  I do not see the fruit in that.  Can our blog be an exception?  I think it can.  Can we keep our comments honoring Christ, yet speaking the truth in love?  I would like to issue that challenge for this blog.   Sharing our (your) stories is truthful and sometimes it is not pretty.  I'm not saying we cannot discuss truthful stories at all.  What I'm talking about is personal attacks on people.  Here's an example of how we can define that fine line:


"Mickey Mouse is a bully" = personal attack
"Interfering with someone's life to that degree is treating them like a bully" = not a personal attack
"I feel threatened when being around this person:  = not a personal attack 
 


In light of the last few posts, I want to bring some closure.  There were some important lessons to be learned and you might find it helpful to skim over the last three posts.  What can you take from those conversations (in the posts themselves and especially the comments) that will help you and others here?    We will run into people who don't believe us, want to accuse us of being the cause of the problem, etc.  So what can we learn from this?   What are some clues in determining who is safe or not?  What knowledge have we gained that will be helpful in the future in dealing with people who don't believe us, who don't want to hear us?  

Additionally, we can use this time to discuss what happened to you personally during this time?  Were you bothered by the conversation?  Some people shared their feelings with me privately.  Would you be willing to share them publicly (of course with an anonymous name if you prefer)?  Chances are, you are not the only one and by sharing your comment, others will be able to relate with you and discover they weren't alone.

And finally, feel free to discuss the parameters I suggested for blog discussions.  Is this the right direction for our blog?  Do you have any other ideas how to keep this place Christ-honoring?  I don't know if you caught it, but I'm using the pronoun "our" with blog.  The blog is not here for me.  It's here for us. 

Here are the previous three posts up for discussion:






If we have enough participation, we can use this info for the Spiritual Abuse Help area above. 







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Wednesday, June 27, 2012

The Big Elephant: Contend for the Faith or Not!


 Note to Fred Butler:   My husband and I discussed this post at length, gave me his approval, and also said that if you want to call him, he knows you have our number.  


Here is the big reveal.  What is the big elephant in the middle of the room that so many pastors and religious leaders seem to avoid?    

Spiritual Abuse





As I was completing this post, I became aware that Fred Butler has posted a new blog post on his own blog in which he again discusses his disdain for spiritual abuse blogs like mine.  Instead of responding to questions in a timely matter here, where my readers posed very good and engaging questions, he has elected to take the questions to his own blog and answers some of them there, without even mentioning a thing here.   I think he should have responded here, where the questions are, and where people have been coming back to look for his responses.  Very strange, indeed.

But we do need to carry on.  There is a big elephant in the middle of the room when discussing this topic with some people, religious leaders, pastors.  Fred wanted to talk about everything under the sun:  my husband, my family, where I live, how long since I’ve been in the church, my current pastor’s thoughts, but avoided the elephant in the room, and let's face it, it's a lot easier to revert the topic back onto the grumbler or complainer than to investigate and see if there are any truths to the "complaints".   Who wants to get their hands dirty in a messy pastor/congregant church situation?  I understand that. 


I also understand the knee-jerk reaction that causes many pastors/church leaders to think the first thought that I am of the whiner, complainer-housewife-who-has-nothing-better-to-do-but-sit-in-her-lougewear-behind-her-computer-all-day-long-and-blog camp.  However, it’s interesting that the secular media and a huge number of atheists seem to get a clear picture.  The overwhelming response by secular media was:  “hmm, she says it’s cult-like and he sure is acting cult-like”   . . . . . or  . . . “what kind of pastor sues a former church member?”

Spiritual abuse - why does that issue get put on the back burner with so many?  Why are all of these other matters  (where's my husband, where I live) more important than the spiritual abuse which is affecting scores and scores of people, perhaps some for eternity.   I have found this response truly baffling.

For those still caught in the trap of ignoring the big elephant, I will attempt to explain it another way:

Imagine escorting your 16-yr old daughter to the police station to report her horrific rape.  
The rape was perpetrated by a stranger and happened 2 years ago while at a friend’s party.  
Imagine sitting in the police office with your emotionally scarred and shaken daughter as she recounts the horrific nightmare story and then the police officer interrogates her.  
How would you feel if she was asked questions like this:  

  • what were you wearing?  
  • was your skirt too short?  
  • where were your parents when this was taking place?  
  • what does your family think of this?  
  • do you go to church?  
  • why did you go to your friend’s party?  
  • why were you out so late?
  • why are you just reporting it now?   

How would most parents respond to this kind of questioning?   There would be outrage!  Questioning a traumatized victim in that fashion only re-victimizes her, makes her cower, afraid to talk, afraid to trust.  This happens time and again to those who try to report spiritual abuse.   The topic of spiritual abuse is ignored and diverted to other irrelevant topics.  This not only happened to me on Fred Butler’s blog, but with other pastors as well.

But now, I will be addressing one last part of Fred Butler’s comment to me here since it’s very difficult to maneuver through the large amount of comments on that post (thanks, btw, great discussions).

Fred, it is interesting that the world looked upon our case and thought his behavior inexcusable, yet seasoned, godly men, including you, chose to interrogate me as if I was the criminal on trial.  Am I the criminal?  I have felt that way sometimes. 






Fred, you are not alone in this way of treating me and others like me, but that does not excuse the behavior. 

The Bible speaks clearly about false teachers and abusive shepherds.  Why do you minimize this situation to issues of mere “grumbling” and “complaining” without looking at the more obvious sign of a pastor filing a civil lawsuit of $500,000 against mothers and their adult children?   Why does the focus stay primarily on me?

Here was your comment to me:

Look, Scripture does warn us about bad pastors, but it also warns us about many of the folks I have encountered over the last month out in Spiritual Abuse Survivor Land. Jude also writes,

These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:  how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. (Jude 16-19)

Are you using this verse in reference to me and my blog?  Am I the grumbler and complainer, walking according to my own lusts?   Is this verse being used to reference the “many folks I have encountered over the last month out in Spiritual Abuse Survivor Land”?   Are you using this verse to justify why you believe I should shut down this blog?   (Side note:  "Survivor Land"????  as if blogging about this subject is some sort of amusement-park experience?  Ouch!!!, Fred - that's a hurtful comment.)

I am no Biblical scholar, but when I looked at your words and the verse you used to back up your words, I trusted you to be using them accurately.  You also mentioned teaching at church, so obviously you are a respected teacher with a reasonable amount of Biblical knowledge to have that position at your church.   Here’s my point.  You used that passage in a way to prove your point that I (and spiritual abuse bloggers) am out of line, in a rebuking fashion.   There were quite a few people who read your words here on my blog (I think people liked the debate - around 800-1,000 hits per day).   That's quite a lot of people to read your words, coming from someone who speaks with authority. 

A reader (who happens to be a woman) contacted me privately and mentioned something that I had missed and perhaps many of my readers had missed (however, I think “The Other Tom” got it).  This particular passage that you quoted is from Jude - a book about apostasy and false teachers.  The verse you quoted is talking about false teachers who are grumblers and complainers, walking after their own lusts, not people like me. 

It took me little time to search biblegateway.com and look up Jude and read commentaries.  It took less than a minute to find the key theme from Mac's Study Bible notes that the book of Jude is about apostasy from false teachers.   I’m sure you have numerous references to this book on your bookshelf and you certainly have access to an envious amount of biblical reference books at your place of employment.  It is very clear, the whole book of Jude is about apostasy and false teachers in the church.  Here's a bit from John Mac:

From Introduction to Jude, MacArthur Commentary pg. 139
 "Satan's most effective agents, like spiritual terrorists, secretly infiltrate the church where they pass themselves off as genuine shepherds and leaders.  In reality, however, they are I posters and defectors, apostates who claim to know Christ, but in fact reject Him.    They verbally affirm their knowledge of His word, but their actions indicate that they are actually enemies of the truth.   ...The New Testament repeatedly warns of the danger that apostate false teachers pose to the church..."

and Pg. 148
The rest of the New Testament records similar warnings, instructing believers to guard themselves against the deceptive nature of false teaching masquerading as Christian truth.  (Matt. 24:10-14; 2 Thes. 2:3-12; 1Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 John 2:18-19; 4:1-3; 2 John 7-10; Rev. 2:6, 14-16, 20-23; 3:1-3, 14-18; cf. James 5:1-6) 

Right now this is what I am doing:
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.  Jude 3

Now of course I suspect this was an oversight on your part, but what you have posted publicly on my blog is exactly what some pastors and spiritual leaders are doing intentionally all over the world:  some are twisting verses out of context in a lording and rebuking fashion to further their own agenda,  rather than using it appropriately in shepherding and protecting their flock.  Fred, that is one kind of spiritual abuse and you just demonstrated it on my blog.   Please reread that verse again and ask yourself if in fact you are the intended subject, not me.   By twisting scripture to suit your own agenda, you are not doing God’s work, but are interfering with it. 

Imagine how easy it is for a power-happy pastor to twist a verse out of context to control and manipulate his congregation to further his agenda.  And the sheep follow, unknowingly, because they trust their pastor to be the man of God.  They are led down paths of false teaching, distorted half-truths, never being able to understand the true meaning of the gospel, of grace, of redemption, of forgiveness. 

In addition to misuse of scripture, I also see a disconnect between what your own pastor teaches (have you read Truth Wars?) about how to deal with false teachers and what you are doing.  God does not like false teachers and wolves, yet you appear to be allowing them a “get-out-of-jail free card" by focusing instead on the methods survivors use when crying out for help while dealing with this situation Biblically. 



 


I feel like I need to issue some sort of disclaimer to my readers, many of whom have gone through such horrific abuses I couldn't make them up in my mind if I tried.  I need to warn them about your blog, Fred, because I have not seen validation or a spirit of genuine love or concern there for survivors.  I am concerned about the ramifications if some of my readers go there, that it could trigger them emotionally.  Readers, please be aware of this should you chose to read there.  Fred's blog is known to be a debate blog.  Debate blogs are very factual and strong opinion and there is little regard to feelings.  Please be aware of that.

One more note to my readers:  Someone who cares about the abused is going to clearly demonstrate love to you.  If you don't sense the love, simply leave.  These verses can help you determine if you are dealing someone who is loving: 

 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  
1 Cor 13: 4-7


PS Kudos to Fred for getting my name spelled exactly right on his blog post.  And I look nothing like churchlady.
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Wednesday, June 20, 2012

How Far Will We Go to Contend for the Faith?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have been waiting for this response from Mr. Butler for a while.  He has now addressed the issue and I would like to open it up for discussion.   I was concerned that we wouldn't hear from Fred again and that the questions might remain unanswered.  Thank you, Fred, for responding. 

My blood pressure rises each time I read his comment.  Mr. Butler is not the first person who has given me this response.  And sadly, I notice a trend of similar responses coming from people of Fred's ilk.   I may address that at some point because I believe we clearly have a systemic issue that has gone rampant in our churches - the failure to appropriately deal with false teachers and pastors who abuse their flocks.  Did Jude 1:3 - the part where we are to earnestly contend for the faith -  get removed from their Bibles?  Do pastors get to pick and choose their battles and ignore false teachers?  Really?  Is that how it works now?

While you read this, I ask you to do one thing.  Please imagine this is a situation in which there are abused sheep, a whole church full of abused sheep who are being misled.  Ask yourself what will happen with the abused sheep if we follow Fred's response? 



You have stated on more than one occasion that the blog on which we are now interacting should not exist. I'm curious: Under what circumstances would Julie Anne's blogging be appropriate, in your view?

Appropriate blogging against this current pastor and church specifically? Never.   If she felt inclined to leave a comment with google and it got removed, that honestly should have been the end of it. But she persisted. Julie Anne seems to suggest that she was under some obligation to warn everyone about this church, but why? She hadn't attended there in three years before leaving that google review comment, at least that is how I understand it. All of the sudden she felt she had to leave a negative comment and stir up strife with this pastor and church? I can be a gadfly at times on blogs, but if the blogger or web moderator is deleting my comments, I know when to take a hint.

What would have to transpire in order for you to concede that Julia Anne's blogging is no longer something she need repent of?

In my opinion, she needs to discontinue this blog and leave Chuck and that church alone. Her and her family live in an entirely different state now, as I understand it. This should no longer concern her. Further, make some sort of faith effort that she will cease and desist from bothering them again. That's I see it.



Interestingly, this is part of a similar discussion I had with Fred on his blog a while back.   I  posted the following comment and received no response from Fred.

Blogger Julie Anne said...
Fred: Let's back up a bit. I did not originally start a "Survivor Blog". I posted a one paragraph Google Review. Evidently, it was removed by the pastor. I added it again, and it was removed (repeat this story a few more times). This was the only place I intended to say anything. He removed my voice, so I went to a different venue.

I did what I felt was right. Yes, it is messy.  The whole thing is uncomfortable. What feels right about false teachers?   Nothing! However, after beginning the blog, I have been in contact with countless people who discovered the story thanks to the pastor's foolish lawsuit and subsequent media response.   These people have told me story after story of abuse that I was unaware of because they experienced it many years before me and I had never heard of them.   They have been living in silence for years, sometimes more than a decade, some families have been torn apart, some no longer go to church or are afraid to go to church - - - all because of this one man.  I felt by not doing what I did, I would be sinning:

http://apprising.org/2010/11/22/john-macarthur-jesus-and-false-teachers/

Criticize and rant all you want about my method, but until you walk in my shoes . . . .
9:17 AM  (Click here to read entire blog post and comments)

I would also like to remind Fred more words from his pastor,  Dr. John MacArthur.  In MacArthur's Truth War book, he mentions, "even some pastors and popular writers in the Christian market might be the enemy disguised as comrades.  The apostle Paul warned of that very danger in 
2 Cor. 11:13-15." 

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 
2 Corinthians 11:13-15



Once again - if all other appropriate Biblical methods were employed, if the pastor refused to communicate, refused to meet with a local pastor who offered mediation, if he refused to listen to MacArthur's people, including Phil Johnson, what next, Fred?   There were a number of pastors in the local area who knew of this situation and all chose to not get involved. 

Are pastors and church leaders the ONLY people whom God uses to point out abuse and false teachings?  Luther's nailing of the ninety-five theses to the Wittenburg church door was one method of calling out wrongs.  Do you think if he had the internet available, he would have snubbed modern technology?

Fred,  now what?  Walk away from abuse?  Don't you have a child, Fred?  Would you walk away from your son if you saw him being abused?  Would you take the blog down and walk away?  


Which reminds me of this brilliant post from Craig Vick, who asked you some questions that you perhaps missed earlier.  I thought I'd bring the  comment here so you'd be sure to see it:

Fred,

You are clearly very bright, and I think you are interested in real discussion. Consider, then, what I take to be a central problem in all of this. There are churches that do not overtly transgress orthodoxy and yet are very cult like in their behavior. Do you agree that such churches exist? If so, how do we spot them? I would find it more constructive, and a better use of your gifts, if you would wrestle with that question rather than simply tearing apart the tests that someone else has proposed. I don't think it's easy to do. Some wolves are very adept at looking like sheep. If we say, for example, that such wolves differ from sheep (or true pastors) in that they are manipultive and controlling it's easy to respond by saying that's a bit vague (it is). That doesn't mean, however, that this test isn't getting at something very real. So how do we distinguish between cult like control and normal, responsible teaching and care? What would you suggest? You yourself say "There are pastors who are controlling and lord it over the flock they are to shepherd." How do you distinguish these from those using Scriptural authority appropriately?


My readers have asked some great questions.  I hope you will be so kind as to respond.

Thanks!
~ja
 

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Tuesday, June 19, 2012

All-Blogs-Are-Not-Created-Equal Rant

I moderated and subsequently posted a comment earlier this morning and this is only part of the comment.  I have family issues to tend to today and will be out of the house for much of the day, so I will only be dealing with this part of the comment, but you can be sure that my mind is stewing on the rest of the comment.   This comment is from Fred Butler who maintains a blog called Hip and Thigh.


To David

Sorry you were offended, but you need to know a little something about the blogging world.
I've been doing this for a while, so I speak with some experience.  
Those who seek to hide themselves by anonymity by commenting with a "nickname" or just anonymously, tend to have something to hide. The person is a trouble-maker or is running from some sort of accountability.  In honestly, it shows a profound lack of respect to the person's they are commenting toward.

I don't usually suffer anonymous individuals who have no profile page where there is something a little bit about the person, who they really are, where they attend church, where they live. Especially if they are accusing me of shepherding crimes of bullying congregants.

That isn't asking for much. I just want to know where the person is coming from, because I am in fact responding as a person to a person.

Hi Fred:  I want to welcome you to my blog and thank you for commenting as your comment has given me much to post about, not that I've experienced boredom yet.  Your comments and style seem to add a trickle of fuel to my fire.

 
I've read your blog and see how it works.  I've also read some of the blogs you have listed on your sidebar over the years.  I get blogging, too.  I've maintained another blog for years, one which would probably not be of interest to you (motherhood, sewing, knitting, crafting, food, children, etc), and interestingly, 99% of those who comment there use pseudonyms because they are posting about their families, pics of their kids, etc.  There are a lot of people who comment on blogs who don't want their first and last name out "there" in public on the web.  As a mother of children, I respect their privacy and they respect mine.

Some religious bloggers seem to work differently.  I understand that some religious bloggers do not care for anonymous posters.  The majority of the comments on this blog would not be approved on your blog because of the "rules" you have established on your blog.  That is fine.  That is your blog, your rules.  

However, all blogs are not created equal.  This blog is different in that we have a pastor who sued me right after the blog went public.  Has any pastor sued you because of your blog?  I couldn't find any evidence of that on your blog.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.   I saw your connection with Grace Community.  Is John MacArthur your pastor?  I saw that you work for Grace to You on your info page.  I know his personal opinion on suing (especially after my former pastor accused a Grace Community pastor of encouraging him to sue us), so I'm sure he wouldn't go against his own teaching and sue you.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

At the beginning of the blog, readers commented under the names "Anonymous" and other pseudonyms.  After the first former member used her real name, she, too was sued (Meaghan).  Have you had a pastor sue any of your readers who comment on your blog?   In the past 10 years in which I have read blogs, I have never read of any pastor suing someone who started a blog about a church, nor have I encountered a situation where a pastor sued someone who commented on a blog using their real name.  

Just for a moment, will you please put yourself in my shoes.  Imagine what it might feel like to maintain a blog.  Each time you post, you have the dark cloud over your head reminding you that your former pastor is suing you for $500K for defamation.  Please put yourself in the shoes of my readers who might want to comment, but are fearful.  They have already seen me being sued, 3 others sued, and now an additional member who recently posted a comment on my blog using her name.  They may want to offer support or comment, yet are afraid that if they sign their name, their name will likely be added to the lawsuit.  

Keep in mind at the court hearing, the pastor's attorney mentioned wanting to bring more people in.  My attorney stood up and reread the anti-SLAPP motion reminding the pastor's attorney that they had already used up their one and only amendment by adding Meaghan to the lawsuit and they were not able to amend again.  What does that tell you?  That this pastor is finished suing former members?     What does his track record tell you?  Those facts speak for themselves. 

The former members of this church are in a real predicament.  If they speak out using their real name, there is a very real and valid threat of being sued based on factual history (do the numbers $500,000 mean anything to you?   they do to the ones who have been sued).   Do you get the seriousness of this situation?  Let me cut to the chase:  how many people do you know have $10K in their back pocket to plunk down to retain an attorney, who want to risk emotional turmoil, time, publicity to get involved by disclosing their identity publicly on a blog by commenting.  Is it worth it?  No!  This is the REALITY that we face here on this blog.  Please get your head out of the sand and realize that our circumstances are far different than the day-in-and-day-out brouhaha about doctrinal issues that so many "religious" blogs discuss.  

There is another issue that I have not discussed, but has been discussed among former members.  There are people who not only fear a lawsuit, but fear for their lives.  I refuse to go into more detail on this blog, so don't ask, but that is the reality for some folks who were former members.   Many concur with their assessment.

Another issue is that I am now dealing with on the blog is people from other churches who have dealt with abuse in their own church.  Some have e-mailed me privately telling me their personal accounts of sexual abuse that was ignored, overlooked by leaders in the church.  I am not about to expect them to reveal their identities and re-victimize their children who have already been abused.  Even the media does not do this.  

This is not a normal blog situation, is it, Fred?  

The purpose of this blog is to provide a safe place in which all can comment.  Yes, it also means that people (whom we bloggers call "trolls") have the opportunity to wreak havoc and disrupt the peace.  I've had a few of those:  people calling me Jezebel, saying I'm evil, not a Christian, etc.  Whatever!

Keep in mind, for me, this is about free speech as well.  If there wasn't freedom of speech, I wouldn't have been able to tell my story and so many people wouldn't have been able to identify with my story.  So, daily I put my big girl panties on and moderate comments:  I deal with anonymous posters who "hide" behind a pseudonym telling their stories of abuse, who try to connect with others, who encourage others, and also I deal with the dark side of the anonymous trolls.

This is my blog and I will continue to allow anonymous posters to tell their story.  Those are people I care about and want to reach out to.  I don't care about the rules of other bloggers.  This is my blog and my rules.  And on my blog, I will continue to provide a safe place, regardless of the extra trouble it causes me by allowing trolls to comment as well. 

End of Julie Anne Rant.

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