Saturday, October 6, 2012

How can we best help friends who remain in an abusive church?





A horrible and shocking thing has happened in this land— 
the prophets give false prophecies, and the priests rule with an iron hand.

Worse yet, my people like it that way!  
But what will you do when the end comes?  

Jeremiah 5:30-31











Reader Rebecca Kvenvolden asks a great question and suggested it as a topic for a post.  I think it's a great topic for discussion:




Rebecca KvenvoldenOctober 1, 2012 6:30 PM 
Hey Julie Anne! would you consider a post/conversation about how we can serve our friends who are still in an abusive church? I posted a link to my facebook about mark driscoll, and was jumped all over by some of my friends who still attend MHC. I'm out of my mind with frustration as they just do NOT GET IT! It all flips back to ME and why "I'M" angry and sinful for exposing this pastor's sinful behavior! I'm SO frustrated by this, and i feel like God has given me a burden to be a help to others, but i keep getting kicked in the face and am really starting to get angry and bitter about it. Is there NO way to influence others? it seems so obvious to me now, but I too, was warned and totally blew it off, so ??? ugg.



It's very difficult to watch friends and loved ones in a bad church situation when we can see clearly what is going on.  What do you think?  Have you tried to help friends who are in an abusive church?  Did it work?  What did you do?  How can we help our friends who are "stuck" in abusive churches?



”Spiritual abuse occurs when someone in a position of spiritual authority, the purpose of which is to ‘come underneath’ and serve, build, equip and make God’s people MORE free, misuses that authority placing themselves over God’s people to control, coerce or manipulate them for seemingly Godly purposes which are really their own.” – Jeff Van Vonderen




Thursday, October 4, 2012

Homeschool Movement and Abuse? Introduction








The lawsuit from my former abusive church has come and gone and I have been doing some deep thinking - - trying to figure out what brought us to that particular church - - - what made that church appealing to us?   I had to acknowledge that this church, like other prior churches, was strongly pro-homeschooling.   In fact, if you didn't homeschool, you may not feel very comfortable there.  So, it made me go back further . . . . all the way back to the very beginning  - before we started homeschooling and were investigating.   What I have discovered is alarming:  patriarchal teachings that are often times abusive, parenting styles that are often abusive, and ideas completely outside of mainstream Christianity are going on in the homeschool movement.



My husband and I have been married 27 years and have 7 children from 25 yrs down to our 6-yr old "caboose".  We have always homeschooled.  We have always believed that this was the best choice for our family.  We have been to many churches due to my husband's military service and job changes.  Many people have influenced us in our homeschooling, parenting, marriage, and our Christian life journey and right now, I am angry.   I am angry about what I have discovered looking over our marriage, looking at our parenting styles over the years, looking at decisions we have made, looking at people who influenced us  - people we trusted to be godly, like-minded and who wanted the best for their children and families.



If you have not been connected with the homeschool movement and click on some of these links, you might say:  "Um, yea, you drank the Kool-Aid long ago."  If you've been in the homeschool movement, you will probably be nodding along and can reminisce with me.   I will take you on a wild journey going back through what I have experienced or seen in the past couple decades as a homeschooling mom.  Here is a sampling, and not in any order, of the kinds of influences, beliefs, philosophies, practices we dealt with or were familiar with among the homeschooling movement over the years: 



Why did we have so many children?  How do you know when your quiver is full?  Would we have had this many children if we hadn't listened to specific teachings?  Who invented the jumper dress?  Why did I sometimes feel guilty if I didn't wear my denim jumper?  I no longer own a denim jumper.  Who decided Gregg Harris or Michael Farris were the spokesmen for homeschoolers?  Why did so many homeschoolers flock to the articles and books of Mary Pride?


* * * TMI warning * * *Is it okay to refrain from sex to not get pregnant or is that saying "no" to God's blessings of children?  Did it really mean one isn't trusting God if taking measures to prevent pregnancy after cycles returned 6 weeks postpartum (and round-the-clock nursing)?  How many blessings of babies did I prevent by taking matters in my own hands?  Is God mad at me for my "interference" of "His plan"? * * * * end TMI warning * * * *  


What about all of those families who stop having babies after only 4 children or 2 children - - - are they disobeying God?  Why don't they want God's blessings?  Who is targeting the homeschooling community to convince them to pop out babies to overpopulate the world with Christians babies?  Why does this same dude bombard our mailboxes right before Christmas to encourage us to buy Christmas toys (gender specific boy toys for boy and girly girl toys for girls) when their family does not celebrate this "pagan" holiday? 


How did I get to the point where I believed that I may be treading dangerously if I was not a member of the Homeschool Legal Defense Fund?    Who would protect me if someone from school district came to my door and wanted to find out why my children weren't attending the evil government school down the block?  How many homeschool families printed out instructions on what to say to government officials  if "they" came unannounced to our door to interrogate?  How many of us had HSLDA phone numbers in a prominent place . . . . just in case?   Where did all of this fear come from?    



Why was I corrected when I said "public" school instead of their preferred "government" school?  Is there an agenda going on?  Who is feeding all of this?  Who decided that boys should be owning their own home businesses to support their families?  Who decided that all colleges were bad until Patrick Henry College was founded by popular homeschool leaders in the "movement" and then all of a sudden it became "okay" and even "good" to send our kids away to college?  


How did the homeschool movement influence my views as far as who I voted for or how involved I was in politics?  How did they convince me that I was eating improperly and I needed to grind my own wheat and make my own bread?  How did the homeschool community have the inside scoop before my traditional-schooled friends from church when it was going to become the end-of-life-as-we knew-it during the Y2K scare?  Who brought that hype to the homeschool community?  Would you like to ask me how many homeschoolers I personally know who are still going through their stockpiles of grains?  Seriously!!!!   Did Julie Anne actually buy Spam during the Y2K scare?









When did I get to the point where I looked down at my friends who were Christians and either sent their children to public or private schools when "they should" be teaching their own?  How did all of this happen?  Why do so many homeschoolers balk at immunizations?    Why are some homeschoolers so proud?  Homeschooled kids were the smartest because they always won the National Spelling Bees, right?    Who decided that homeschoolers should be involved with speech and debate?   Why are so many families going to their state capitals and involving themselves in politics - - because they were going to be the movers and shakers of world in the political arenas?  And why is my husband responsible for my faith and the faith of our children?   And why do we have to go through him on spiritual matters?  Does God not speak directly to homeschool kids and wives?  



Who told me about modesty and how I should be dressing and how my daughters should be dressing?  What does modesty have to do with homeschooling?  Why do all homeschool boys look alike with similar short haircuts?   Who convinced me that my children could never "date", but must only "court" and that my husband gets to choose our children's future spouses?  How did, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" become such a popular book?  Who named the government as "evil" for wanting to know how our children are educated?  Why do homeschoolers assume the worst when they file their "notice to intent" with their local school district?  


Why do they assume that the school district secretary doesn't want to deal with homeschoolers and will instigate more trouble by wanting more information than required by law?  Who made up this purity ring ceremony - - - and that our teen daughters should wear their purity rings symbolizing their virginity until they replace it with their wedding ring?  Who started this thing where daughters shave their fathers beards?  Ewww.  Below you will see an invitation to a Father Daughter Tea from Vision Forum.  Fast forward to 1:37 to see daughters shaving their fathers.  Um, really??? 









Who decided that boys should have their homes paid for before they get married?   And why are organized sports so wrong?    When did Young Earth creation become a primary issue to be a Christian and that if you didn't believe it, you might not be Christian?   Why are scientists looked at as if suspect?  Psychology is of the devil.  What's with all of those pictures of large families with matching clothes on the covers of homeschooling magazines?  Are my children supposed to be wearing matching clothes?  Who decided that was the right way to dress kids?  Who decided that women should only wear dresses?  




And what about those who show up at conventions with head coverings - - -are we bad women if we don't have them?   Who decided that family-integrated churches were better than traditional churches for our family?  Why is it that homeschoolers brag about their children being able to interact and socialize well, yet you can "pick them out" a mile away because they look and act so "different"?   Who has been instigating the us-vs-them mentality regarding so many of these topics?  Who decided that the only job that we should be teaching our daughters is to be "keepers of the home" and serving their fathers and then serving their future husbands?



Who decided a 1/4-inch plumber's line was an appropriate tool for spanking?  Who taught us that if we had to repeat a command twice to our children, our children were being disobedient:  First-Time Obedience.   How did we let this group convince us that all infants should be able to go 4 hours between feedings.  What single man decided that fathers were an umbrella of authority over the family below God?  What same man also encouraged men and women to get vasectomies and tubal ligations reversed to allow God to control the size of their families and then paraded post-reversal children in front of the auditorium at conventions?  


This is quite a diversion from spiritual abuse in the church, but I need to go there.  I now believe the homeschooling movement made our spiritually abusive church seem appealing to us.  Some of the above is just plain quirky, but other issues go much deeper affecting core spiritual beliefs and agendas.


My daughter, Hannah, is 25 yrs old and she was only homeschooled.   The first traditional school she attended was community college and last spring she became a college graduate.  Her peers were from an early generation of the growing homeschool movement.   More and more blogs are being published by young adults like my daughter who are "coming out" and sharing their homeschool experiences.  The stories are not pretty.    My daughter has shared some of her story.  And you can read the story I wrote about Hannah's experience here.  In that story, you can get an idea of the controlling environment in which she lived and how she had to escape - it remains one of the most popular blog posts.  What she experienced at home has probably gone on in many homes.  I bear much responsibility for it.  I went along with it.  I have apologized to my daughter many times for it.   The abusive church we found also aligned with these philosophies of heavy-handed control of children, even adult children.  Hannah was 21 when she moved out.  She was not a child, yet we thought we owned her.  



I assumed (yeah, I know about that word), that when we got into homeschooling that it was a safe community - a community where children's best interest was at heart.  We wanted to have the primary influence in the education of our children.  That's good, right?  Well . . . . I have discovered that there is an underlying agenda in the homeschooling community that has been there all along - even years before I started - and it continues to this day.  I believe that some of this underlying current  - taken to an extreme - could be responsible for breaking up families, causing abuse, wreaking havoc on people's spiritual life.  


I firmly believe that God used the lawsuit in a powerful way to highlight the issue of spiritual abuse in the church.  He was there during the entire time providing amazing support for me.  My life is rich having gone through it.  But now I'm wondering if God is using another experience of my life to share here.   



While I have spent countless hours writing blog posts about spiritual abuse in the church, I think there is a setup for spiritual abuse that originates in the homeschool movement.   In our abusive church, we felt a "kindred spirit" (and all the homeschool moms just laughed at me with that phrase) in the church because of with like-minded teachings and beliefs.   Some of these ideas need to be explored further.


I have an upcoming post to share from a young lady who was raised in a homeschooling/patriarchal family.    I think it's important to hear from these young adults who have lived it and are now trying to put the pieces together of their childhood together as they begin their families.  I would like to share more stories from those who have experienced the homeschool movement and the impact this movement has had on their life emotionally and spiritually.   If you have a story to share or know someone who might want to share, please e-mail me:  bgbcsurvivors@gmail.com










photo credit: freezelight via photopin cc

Tuesday, October 2, 2012

Alex Grenier Responds to Notice of Imminent Lawsuit by Calvary Chapel Visalia & Pastor Bob Grenier



Alex Grenier of Calvary Chapel News has written an excellent article on the possible impending lawsuit and has given me permission to republish it here.   You better believe I am emotionally drawn into this case as it was 7 months ago that I received the subpoena for my defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor and church.

Alex has been blogging far longer than me.  I've been reading his blog and have noted a few things.   In cases of abuse like this, it's very easy to let anger get the best of you and even consume you.  I don't see that here.  I do see a righteous anger.  I also see is a man who wants the truth to be exposed and justice to be served.  I see a man very concerned that others might endure the same abuse he and others have experienced.  This is not ranting.  This is not an obsession, this is LOVE.  And Alex is willing to go the extra mile regardless of how long the court process takes.

On Alex's blog site, there is a "Prayer" tab in which Alex had written a prayer.  Tell me, is this from a man filled with hate and bitterness?  This is not about a hate campaign or a man with a personal vendetta as we will read about below in Alex's article.  You be the judge:


September 29, 2011 at 9:01 am
God I pray your will is done in this situation.
I pray for my Mom and brothers and even for Bob, that he’ll come clean and truly repent.
I pray for the attitudes and hearts of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel, that one of “Refuse Collector” will be changed to one of compassion for those who have been hurt by Calvary Chapel Pastors and situations. May they model the heart of Jesus who would never see this blog or any of us as part of a “Refuse Collector” but as hurt saints and sinners who need the Reconciliation and Truth your Word promises…instead of the cold Stone Wall of CC.
I pray that justice and accountability for Church Leadership be done, following your instructions from your servant Paul the Apostle.
I pray you have mercy on me a sinner. I am guilty of so much sin myself. Convict me of sin, give me the gift of repentance and give me belief in your Son Jesus Christ our Messiah.

Again, your will be done. Praise and glory to you, my Good Father. 

Alex wrestled with his own family demons by himself until he saw the destruction outside of his family and knew he must get involved.  That is exactly at the point where I said enough was enough and wrote my first Google review.  But Alex went big guns and started a blog first, and it grew very quickly as others around the country shared their stories and experiences at other Calvary Chapel churches and noticed abusive trends among the leaders.  The Calvary Chapel News blog is a place where those who have suffered under abusive leadership may document their story.  

In Alex's article below, he mentions the anti-SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation) law.  Let me explain a little about the anti-SLAPP that Alex refers to here.  My attorney used the anti-SLAPP law in my case.  The anti-SLAPP law was created to help prevent frivolous lawsuits against people who are trying to shut down people like bloggers, etc,  whose speech is protected by law.  Because there is no discovery/subpoenas, etc, allowed in an anti-SLAPP lawsuit, the process is expedited.  My case lasted four months from receipt of subpoena to the judge's ruling.  Once an attorney files an anti-SLAPP motion, all discovery is stayed which means that no one can be interrogated or subpoenaed or deposed for more information.  The judge has to take what information is presented in the original complaint and responses and in the hearings to make a ruling.  A normal civil court case is lengthy and can last 2-3 years.  Depositions, getting subpoenas and confiscating personal files, records is a very time-consuming process.  Alex is willing to forego the Anti-SLAPP in favor of a civil court hearing.  I agree with his decision and will explain why.

In Alex's case and in mine,  a favorable anti-SLAPP ruling only allows us to continue blogging.  The anti-SLAPP protects our right to speak out publicly about our church experiences.  It, however, does not address the key issues that Alex is exposing (or I exposed).   With my favorable ruling, I am free to continue to publicly expose/discuss my former pastor and church, but O'Neal is still free to pastor the same church, continue the same extra-Biblical nonsense of Marking and Avoiding congregants, teach the practice of shuning life-long friends/family members and even extended family members, etc.  What I believe to be blatant spiritual abuse continues at BGBC.  That has not changed, sadly.

Alex wants to go further than that.  He wants justice served.  He doesn't want any more abuse to continue.  He is ready and prepared.  Alex's situation with Calvary Chapel Visalia represents one of many stories in the Calvary Chapel "family" of churches.  It will be a precedent-setting case and many eyes will be watching.  This case has potential to shake up the core of Calvary Chapel and the way they do "business".  I hope it is a wake-up call to others who have spiritual tyrants in positions of authority at churches.  

Alex and friends from CC, I stand with you!  ~ja
(Alex's post follows)




For the LORD gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;
he stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
he is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
guarding the paths of justice
and watching over the way of his saints.
Then you will understand righteousness and justice
and equity, every good path;
for wisdom will come into your heart,
and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
discretion will watch over you,
understanding will guard you,
delivering you from the way of evil,
from men of perverted speech,
who forsake the paths of uprightness
to walk in the ways of darkness,
who rejoice in doing evil
and delight in the perverseness of evil,
men whose paths are crooked,
and who are devious in their ways.
(Proverbs 2:6-15 ESV)






If Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel backs out of their Defamation Lawsuit threat, it's an admission of guilt in my opinion (plus some final appeals)
by Alex Grenier


Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel Visalia have recently stated they will be filing a lawsuit in Tulare County for “defamation” according to their attorney Nick Pritchett of Williams, Jordan, Brodersen and Pritchett, a small Visalia, California law firm.  

If Bob Grenier and Calvary Chapel backs out, doesn’t follow through, puts up the Stone Wall once again…it’s an admission of guilt in my opinion.

If they follow through, here’s what I believe is coming and here’s some insight to what I’m preparing…also a couple of last appeals to Bob before this gets past a point of no return.
First one of the appeals to Bob:
Drop the others from the lawsuit. Don’t re-victimize Tina Jenkins, Edna Silva and Not Alone. You’ve hurt them enough already. If it’s a fight you want, I pledge not to anti-SLAPP you if you drop the others…and I’ll give you all the fight you want in civil court. We’ll drag this whole stinking carcass into the public record and let a judge/jury decide who is righteous since the Church has shunned their moral/spiritual responsibility in these matters. We can both depose and cross-examine the aforementioned as witnesses and you take your shot there. Besides, it’s a waste of the good-givers and tithers money at Calvary Chapel Visalia for you to waste their money attacking the others when your lawyer Nick Pritchett knows good and well (or should know) that you’ll get anti-SLAPP’d and that Jesus Money you collect each Sunday will go to pay off the others’ attorneys and expenses. Save some of Jesus’s money and drop the others.
As to the lawsuit if Bob and Calvary Chapel don’t chicken out…from the info I’ve collected from Bob Apologists and CC cast-offs, I believe I have a pretty clear understanding of Camp Bob’s Narrative and Offense/Defense that they’ll present to the court (and to the Calvary Chapel Association to save face and save their Dove):
These are some of the key talking points I’ve learned/observed/heard:
“It’s a Private Family Matter”
“Alex is engaged in a Hate Campaign against his step-father in an effort to take him down”
“This is a Vendetta engineered by a media professional”
“Alex has bad character”
etc etc etc.
Appeals to Motive and Character. That will be the theme of the Camp Bob Narrative.
It’ll probably go something like this:
“Alex is a bitter vindictive step-son who has engineered a Hate Campaign to take down his step-dad. He has rallied a small group of malcontents who had beef with Bob Grenier and reason to lie about him to support Alex’s Hate Campaign. Alex’s brothers are ‘helping a brother out’ and lying for him as well. This whole thing is a malicious conspiracy to take Bob down. The brothers are motivated by their hatred of Bob and the former employees are disgruntled, etc. Who wouldn’t have a few disgruntled people after over 30 years in ministry? We’ll admit Bob may have been a jerk at times, but he did not do the things that these malicious malcontents are saying in Alex’s Hate Campaign. Regarding the supposed child abuse that Bob confessed to the Calvary Chapel Visalia Board, there are mitigating circumstances, Geoff was a danger to the others, he was hopped up on steroids and Bob had to punch him out to protect himself and the family. No other abuse ever happened in the home as many others testify” …or something similar.
Appeals to Motive seem to be a biggie so far.
Then they’ll appeal to Character and assail the character of all involved.
“Alex can’t be trusted. He has past moral failings. He has had some business disputes. He used to say how wonderful Bob was. He accepted a loan from Bob to start his business. He accepted food and shelter from Bob, etc. etc. Alex’s brothers have bad character, moral failings, are ‘scoundrels’ etc. The Aunt who says she witnessed abuse hates Bob and has a grudge. The former employees have bad character, moral failings, are disgruntled etc. and none of them are reliable in their testimony.”
If the Judge allows it to be partially about Character and Motive, I’ll present a different Narrative.
I’ll appeal to Bob’s (and Camp Bob’s) Character and Motive as well.
Bob was a former drug dealer and drug smuggler. He’s an un-convicted, un-caught felon, the only thing that keeps him from being a felon is that he was able to dodge prosecution for those crimes.
Bob claims there was a “miracle” in his life and he’s a changed man. However, Bob didn’t really change, just his bad character changed from one set of bad things to another set of bad things.
I’ll go on to present evidence that Bob went from having a street drug problem to a prescription drug problem. I’ll depose a CC pastor who will testify that he witnessed Bob “stoned on pills” on mission’s trips and that Bob confessed a pill problem with him in the mid 1980′s (during a time we were being abused terribly). I’ll depose witnesses from CCV that saw Bob acting strange, speaking weird, that he seemed to have been on the influence of pills and even stated that he had taken something. I’ll depose family witnesses who will testify that Bob took too many pills to get high.
I’ll then transition into a variety of other character issues and depose witnesses who will present testimony to Bob’s temper, his bullying, his lying, his manipulation, his cult-like counseling, his attempts to get a mother not to report child molestation to authorities etc, etc.
Then we’ll get into the financial issues. That’ll be a real interesting area. Don’t want to disclose too much here, but I can guarantee you, we’ll be on this one for awhile and depositions and discovery will be a hoot and the net will be cast wide and the things we’ll confirm….this part may cross over from civil to criminal, we’ll see.
I’ll conclude with the child abuse and Paul’s molestation allegations. With regards to the child abuse, I’ll depose those directly involved and other witnesses to the abuse. I’ll depose Glen C. and his testimony that Bob confessed punching Geoff out to his Board, but the Board didn’t take action, covered it up, didn’t report (and CCV is a mandatory reporter). Witnesses will testify that much child abuse happened after that Board inaction…not only victims of the abuse but outside witnesses post-confession.
I’ll depose Paul and put his molestation allegations on the record. It’ll be tough and emotional, I don’t look forward to that one.
I’ll present testimony that Bob had me shower naked with him and testimony from witnesses that Bob made it a regular habit of walking around naked in front of us as children/teens while in our home, genitals exposed.
I’ll present Bob’s testimony of his same-sex encounter at boarding school in his book.
There will be a few bombshell witnesses, and I don’t want to disclose too much, but I have a witness who will testify to what so far look like some pretty big inconsistencies in Bob’s version of his own history in his book.
To Motive. Why would Bob lie? Why would my Mom and Bobby Jr. lie for him? Why would the Dowds cover for him?
Money. Power. Influence.
Calvary Chapel Visalia is a money making machine. It’s also a powerful entity and provides a group of followers, a stage, platform and fame, etc.
In discovery we’ll show how much money CCV makes. We’ll show how much Bob and my Mom benefit financially from CCV. We’ll show how much money the Dowds make from CCV. We’ll show how CCV employs and gives benefits to Bob’s daughter-in-law who is Bobby Jr’s wife (Bobby Jr’s household is paid by CCV).
There is huge motive to lie and cover up abuses. If Bob loses his throne, the golden goose of the CCV money-making machine is cooked and his inner-circle loses money, power, influence as well.
I’ll also counter Camp Bob’s Narrative of my motive and my character and counter Bob’s version of the motive and character of all the others.
Very good counter-narrative, but I want to save some for the trial.
It’s not a “hate campaign” and a grand-conspiracy against Bob and it’s not just a small group who he’s hurt and keeps hurting and Bob is not a janitor, he’s a highly influential and powerful public figure in Positions of Trust. It’s in the public interest to deal with these things.
Bob’s actions and the church’s non-action in dealing with these issues in a just manner are responsible for this being public, not a conspiracy “hate campaign”.
The defamation claims will be easy to address and will pretty much be covered in all of the above.
There’s a lot more to it all, and I’m preparing to address these things well beyond what I’ve presented here…but that gives you a taste.
There are many witnesses who will be deposed who have not been mentioned who have some very interesting testimony.
I won’t leave any stone unturned in depositions or discovery. I know this situation like Hawking knows physics.
So, Bob, if you chicken out of your defamation suit, it sure looks like an admission of guilt to me (and many others).
Bring it and let’s get it on and get this stuff out in the open and dealt with.
ONE FINAL APPEAL: Bob, your other option is to confess, repent, come clean and seek reconciliation and get help for your many issues and ask for mercy. True repentance begins with acknowledging the sin and admitting you have a problem. You still may have to suffer some consequences for your sin, I can’t guarantee you won’t, but I’m pretty sure the consequences will be worse if you keep digging in.
Bob, stop this nonsense. Come forward and confess and repent. I’ll then help you to make amends, and help you ask for mercy, even though you may have to suffer some consequences, but it will go better for my Mom and your wife if you do the right thing now without this going further.
Call me, you know how to reach me.



Monday, October 1, 2012

Readers Respond to Anyabwile Article

Sometimes I post quotes from people who may not line up with my beliefs and last post was such a case.  In the article, A Sign of Hope Among Mayhem of Church Abuse,  I was excited about what I was seeing by a pastor associated with the Gospel Coalition, Thabiti Anyabwile.   I am uncomfortable with some of what I see from the Gospel Coalition (and some of you may have picked up on that in my response to Steve in the comment section); however, I posted it because the article contained good and helpful information about the subject of abuse in church.    Abuse is one of the primary focus points of this blog and discussing ways to prevent and handle abusive situations in churches, so this article certainly fit in with that topic.  

I have used John MacArthur's quotes on the blog because I know a lot of readers connect with his teachings.   I appreciate some of his teachings, too;  however, I don't buy everything he says/teaches and also have had some negative experiences with key pastors there.

There was another post in which I quoted Alexander Strauch.  The quote was good; however, a reader, A. Amos Love,  also informed me of other ideas Alexander stands for.  I appreciated his comments:






I love it when people challenge me.  If I see something that rings true to me, I may post it.   People may not agree with me.  That is okay.   Keep in mind that I'm trying to keep the main focus as the main focus.

Here's where I'm coming from:   in abusive churches, we were not allowed to question.  Information was preached to us.  The pastors thought they owned us and what was taught to us.   Sometimes we can fall into the trap of rigid black and white thinking.   I used to be there.  I didn't like the person that I became when using that kind of black/white thinking.  Getting too tied into the all-or-nothing mindset, I failed some people relationally.  I still think it's okay to say that I don't care for the group that Thabiti Anyabwile associates with, but his words on this particular subject ring true for me.  So, please know, if I do use a quote from someone you may have issues with, see if the quote without the name attached lines up for you.  

But if you see something that I have posted that is not sitting right with you, please feel free to question it.  And feel free to do it publicly in the comments section.  I am not afraid of conflict or good debate.  It's good to wrestle with ideas.   Part of my spiritual abuse detoxing has been wrestling with the ideas that have been taught to me by my abuser.  This is a safe place to do so.  

That said, here is what a reader sent regarding Saturday's post and I would like to open it the subject for comment.  I appreciated this e-mail:

Reading the whole article by Thabiti Anyabwile did not give me a lot of hope for 2 reasons - 
#1 - This was about sexual sin - something most Christians would agree on. If a pastor sins in this way, the only question is whether they should be restored through some type of process of counseling. (But, many of the people on the Wikipedia list (Ted Haggard, Paul Cain, Lonnie Frisbee) had large enough egos that they felt they did not need to submit to any restoration process and "dropped out" or resisted it.)
#2 - The "solution" presented here is one that Leaders need to discuss, propose. Most Reformed churches don't have congregational input.  
"Does your staff, leadership team, elders and congregation have a set of practices and policies that help guard against the moral failure of leaders and to address it when it happened?  After reading sifted through a fair number of recent articles and scandals, I’m freshly convinced I need to lead First Baptist’s leaders through discussions and proposals on this issue." 

Also, we know that Pastors can be abusive even if they do not fall into immorality. 

JA's thoughts:  I hadn't made the connection that the abuse Anyabwile was referring to applied solely to pastors with sexual sin.  The comments seemed to be mixed with some discussing sex abuse, but others discussing spiritual abuse as well.  I really appreciated this reader pointing that out.  After rereading the article, I do believe the article was primarily written with the focus on sexual abuse by pastors.  However, the title of the article refers to "pastoral failures".  When I am thinking abuse, I'm thinking all abuse:  abuse in the church by members, abuse by pastors (sexual, spiritual, etc).   Aren't those types of abuse considered to be pastoral failures?   Any thoughts?


And here's part of an e-mail another reader sent me:


While I think Thabiti Anyabwile's insights are spot on and are helpful for the general Christian world to hear and consider, unfortunately the Gospel Coalition caters to an large audience of a certain brand of Christianity that on the one hand, holds the doctrine of sin highly and has seen very little (at least that has not been exposed) overt scandals. However, these are the same circles who perpetuate some very hard core views on secondary issues like complentarianism, homeschooling, etc so highly that when they use the term "gospel" with "coalition", they mean much more than simply a united view on the centrality of Jesus's life death and resurrection. They mean, we are the ones who really have these cultural things figured out and our version of living out the "gospel" is the most accurate.
Mr. Anyabwile seemingly has good intentions,  however, the circles of folks he interacts with hold to some subtle and not so subtle views and practices that reveal that they don't "get it". His words are true and helpful (perhaps he does see the problem more than some). But this admonition of his that you posted is not specific enough to be taken seriously. The leaders involved with the Gospel Coalition and the movement associated with it can see the issues in blantant sex scandals, but are blind to their own sexist and unhealthy practices in their own congregations. Again, I know you get it, hence your post! I'm so thankful for people like you speaking out and confronting these issues.
I don't know what a healthy view of women in a church would look like exactly, but I know my gut is telling me that there is something very very off wrong about these hard core reformed pastors who preach more about men and women's roles than they do about loving the world. I hope that Mr. Anyabwile's words illuminate the harder to see areas of abuse in the lives of the very people he is in close circles with. I hope that churches will stop fearing liberal theologoy taking over the church to the point that they fail to protect women. I hope they return to the simplicity of the gospel and allow it to correct church practices and that churches become a place of refuge rather than a place that harbors sexism and abuse. I saw this more generally as I left my old church, but now with the situation at hand in my life, it is so much more clear.
Thank you for your boldnesses in confronting abuse. It has helped empower me to stay strong in this situation. 


These words struck me the most:   but I know my gut is telling me that there is something very very off wrong about these hard core reformed pastors who preach more about men and women's roles than they do about loving the world. 


Here we go again -  some pastors are more committed to secondary issues in the church and miss the primary focus - loving and guiding their people.  I continue to receive stories about situations like this in my inbox.  This blog will continue to address these issues.  Sometimes it's difficult to understand until connecting with someone's personal story - if you'd like to share yours on the blog, please contact me.






Because they hated knowledge
and did not choose the fear of the LORD,
would have none of my counsel
and despised all my reproof,
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way,
and have their fill of their own devices.
For the simple are killed by their turning away,
and the complacency of fools destroys them;
but whoever listens to me will dwell secure
and will be at ease, without dread of disaster.”
(Proverbs 1:29-33 ESV)