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| Countdown: 5 days till court date, drawn by JA's 9-yr old |
Just a few things to share before a "regular" blog post coming up as my 9-yr old is busy with his drawing for the post.
Phil Johnson from Grace Community Church (John MacArthur's church) reached out to me yesterday and we had a lengthy conversation. As you may recall, in one of the earlier reviews that Chuck O'Neal posted on Google (oy, a lot of activity here!), he said something to the effect that a pastor had given him the okay to sue us. John MacArthur has continuously preached/taught that Christians should not sue and so it was important to find out if they in fact had recommended Chuck sue us. I don't know if there will be more of an official statement coming out than was issued yesterday, but I personally don't think they outright encouraged Chuck to sue. This would make sense also by the fact that Chuck recently removed that particular review from the Google site. There might have been some gray area in communication and understanding, but I just don't believe they encouraged it. Regardless, I was very pleased with the conversation and I think he left with new insights regarding the situation between Chuck O'Neal and the defendants of the law suit or at least my perspective on situations. I felt he was warm and genuine and really listened. He said there would be a staff meeting today and would be bringing up this situation. Ya think?
During my first two conversations with pastors from Grace Community, I did not feel like our issues were heard very well or even acknowledged and this was conveyed to Phil. He apologized for that. In hindsight, they are probably aware that things could have been done differently. Who ever would have thought this would have gone so viral? Wow! LOL Go Streisand Effect!
* * * * * * * * **
It appears that Chuck O'Neal has broke his silence. MSNBC.com featured the first story I've seen which includes comments from Chuck.
* * * *New edit here: Regarding the issue of were we asked to leave or did we leave on or own accord, this is the msnbc.com quote:
Oopsie: look at this post and judge for yourself.
I copied the top part of the review. I have underlined the important phrase:
* * * *New edit here: Regarding the issue of were we asked to leave or did we leave on or own accord, this is the msnbc.com quote:
Smith, who used to play piano at the Beaverton church, said she and her family were asked to leave the congregation in November 2008, but it was almost a year before she took her grievances online. Church leaders, however, deny ever asking the Smiths to leave and claim her family left of their own accord. (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11698334-oregon-mom-sued-by-church-over-online-criticism#comments)
Oopsie: look at this post and judge for yourself.
I copied the top part of the review. I have underlined the important phrase:
- Nov 18, 2009JulieAnne's Destructive Slander Continues To Whom It May Concern: Almost a year ago JulieAnne and her husband were Biblically put out of Beaverton Grace Bible Church with a group of families and individuals that were engaged in ongoing divisive slander.
This is Chuck's "review" on Google. I have a screen shot of it in case it is removed from Google.
Also, I found out early this morning that a press release was issued. I've read it, it's long, drawn out and has no place here on my blog and he does not get to have a platform here. Amen. Amen. And Amen!
Also, I found out early this morning that a press release was issued. I've read it, it's long, drawn out and has no place here on my blog and he does not get to have a platform here. Amen. Amen. And Amen!
* * * * * * * * * *
http://blogknowhow.blogspot.com/2009/04/add-paypal-donate-button-to-blogger.html
ReplyDeleteThis might help out with your paypal donation button. I'll also shoot you an email.
Thank you!
DeleteWell, after reviewing the press release, we know that Chuck can still cut and paste.
ReplyDeleteHahahaha! That's what he does best. I was in his church and I know.
DeleteR.E.I.T.E.R.A.T.E.
Definition of REITERATE. : to state or do over again or repeatedly sometimes with wearying effect.
This is how cult leaders keep their followers.
It is actually a brain washing technique used by many cult leaders. It seems funny, but it is actually frightening when this tool is employed.
DeleteI saw the MSN release. I am so sorry that this entire thing has happened to you. I live in the midwest and am no where near anything that pertains to your troubles but I just couldn't help but you feel like I needed to tell you I am so in awe of you. You, who has gone through such abuse at the hands of a church who says they follow Chris, are able to keep your post upbeat in the light of such foul acts. I am sorry that that church has put such a test to your faith. People and place like that should be brought to light and thank you for doing so. You are a loved daughter of our Heavenly Father and I pray that things will turn out in your favor and that the other families involved will also be cared for.
ReplyDeleteOn a different note. Maybe this Chuck is striving to be the next Jim Jones by the way he seeks to control his congregation. That is a scary thought.
God Bless!
Thank you, Anne with an "e" :)
DeleteI so appreciate it! I don't think he will be the next Jim Jones now.
Oh my, that baby in your profile pic is adorable. I'll bet you're having fun!
blessings!
*Anne hit the nail on the head!! As a child my parents where "church hoppers" and I have wittnessed many churchs here in WI and where I grew up in NV that practice cult like ways...Julie, the lord is working thru you!! YOU ARE THE VOICE OF MILLIONS WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIM TO SUCH MONSTROSITY, I APPLAUDE YOU and hold you in highest regards!!!
DeleteThank you for your kind words. Please pray that I hear His voice. This must not be about me.
DeleteI don't believe the church can claim defamation. If anything they could claim heresy. But churches have always "always" been criticized. Perhaps, the most famous is King Henry XVIII. Further, protestants were formed because as Christians they had a lot of criticism and damning information that they finally had to break away. And Galileo criticized the churches belief that the universe did not revolve around the earth.
ReplyDeletePersonally, if your former church can't stand on its own virtues and feels that your criticism's are damning them, then it is obvious they do have a problem.
I'm pretty sure that no judge will rule in the church's favor, because criticism is part of the game. The church does it all the time, especially towards elected officials and gays, sometimes aligning them to the devil and scourge of society.
Ultimately, if the church can't take criticism, then they shouldn't dish any out as well. But they do and always will.
The fact that this so-called church has agreed to sue you (being whom and what you represent) is a strong indication that it is religious abusive system. The grim truth is that most 'churches' are religious abusive systems, its leaders sole purpose is to exact loyalty to them and the controlling structure they've set up. I am glad yo came out from among them. You should choose to pray for those who remain behind. They behave the way they do towards you because they are in darkness, deceived, and lacking compassion. Once I unearthed that my then bishop and pastor (two fakes obviously) were stealing the tithes and offerings, using same to build their private homes and take frequent expensive vacations. I was the treasurer at that time. I spoke to these two men in private asking them to correct their wicked ways. They agreed to do so that evening but the following Sunday they took to the pulpit and told the church that they both think that I will be attempting to destroy their church. They told the congregation that they didn't know why 'god' laid it on both of their hearts that I was going to attempt to destroy the 'church' but that they needed to warn everyone, especially the weak members. You please stay strong, and do stay in the Word, worship and prayer with your loved ones at home working out your salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord.I agree with you right now and I bind every form of wickedness that has been leveled against you, and your loved ones in order to suppress the truth. God will raise up a standard in the midst of it all and His Angels will protect you. Give me a shout directly via donmarj@gmail.com should you need to share any specific prayer requests. The Holy Spirit has got your heart, and your back!
ReplyDeleteThank you, Mark!
DeleteI want to add to this - I have never harbored bitterness toward those who remain. They are blinded and are victims. The former members have been praying for them all along. We love them. We were them.
DeleteMark said "I was the treasurer at that time. I spoke to these two men in private asking them to correct their wicked ways."
DeleteIn a case like, I would never have gone to them alone. I would have called the police immediately and made sure all my ducks were in a row before I breathed a word to anyone in the church that I wasn't sure I could trust 150 percent. They were not engaging in a personal offense against you so didn't require Matt 18 approach. They were quietly and "publicly" sinning against the church and that means step 1 omits all those personal approaches. I might have retained a lawyer and then approached the rest of the elders, but not the guilty parties. It gives them too much time to spin and circle the wagons. Oh well... not much you can do. You acted in good faith and were roundly smacked because of it. Tragic.
Julie Anne, please be very, very careful when dealing with Phil Johnson and Grace.
ReplyDeleteOk. Thank you.
DeleteMy dear sister - you mentioned you left this church a few years ago because of your concerns and questions and that was perfectly appropriate. However, I do not agree with you going viral about your issues and concerns with respect to this church and the leader. Biblically - you are in error and should repent immediately. In regards to verbally attacking a spiritual leader, the Bible tells us that "every tongue that rises up against [them] in judgment shall be condemned!" Also, I would never financially support this cause. This is how we give place to the "enemy". Instead, let us give God the glory by ending this matter in a godly manner.(smile) Love covers a multidude of sins.... Walk in love.... Pray for that church and its leaders.
ReplyDeleteHow does the Bible deal with false teachers? Can you please tell me?
DeleteI do not consider him to be a spiritual leader. If you read the first-hand accounts of people who have come out of the wood works to finally share their story, you might understand why I am doing this.
I am walking in love. It is not love to abandon hurting and abused people. I believe it would be a sin for me to do nothing.
I hope this helps shed a little more light into why I am doing this. I know your heart is genuine and thank you for commenting.
Going viral means it is of interest to others and went viral because of the law suit filed by Mr. O'Neal. Any human can elevate themselves to "spiritual leader" status if people follow the belief system and this platform can be abused. Speaking out about such abuse is not only appropriate but sometimes necessary to correct wrongs. Sunlight is sometimes the best cleanser. We all should feel fortunate to live in a nation and society where this is allowed without fear of being burned or tortured or imprisoned for our beliefs (or lack thereof). If you read any religious history (take your pick), you'll soon understand what I'm talking about.
DeleteAnonymous, JA did not "go viral." She expressed some concerns in an appropriate forum and THAT went viral. Are you saying she should have stayed quiet because it's "the Christian thing to do"? Please be aware that your attitude also caused many, many boys to be abused by Catholic priests and others to be abused in a variety of church settings -- including, apparently, this one. Regardless what church leaders teach, it is ALWAYS right to come out against abuse. ALWAYS.
DeleteJesus walked in love and exposed the hypocrisy of false teachers constantly. Study the gospels and you will see why the religious leaders of His day wanted Him killed.
DeleteRead Matthew 23. Matthew 15:12" Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" This was after Jesus called the religious leaders hypocrites.
Matthew 10:34 " Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth, I did not come to bring peace but a sword..."
Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
The book of Jude tells us to "contend earnestly for the faith". We are in a truth war. We must expose evil as Ephesians 5:11 tells us to. 2 Timothy 3:13" Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." I've heard it said that most persecution will come from religious leaders.
I'll end with 2 Timothy 3:9 "but they will progress no further, FOR THEIR FOLLY WILL BE MANIFEST TO ALL..."
I recommend the third chapter of 2 Timothy. I recommend the entire Bible!
Carry on, Julie Anne!
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How anyone could think the wing nut running that church is a "spiritual leader" boggles the mind.
DeleteAnonymous said:
Delete"My dear sister - you mentioned you left this church a few years ago because of your concerns and questions and that was perfectly appropriate. However, I do not agree with you going viral about your issues and concerns with respect to this church and the leader. Biblically - you are in error and should repent immediately."
So, since you have taken your issue with Julie on-line, can she sue you and silence you on a website over which she has no control? She can certainly do it here, and she didn't. But if you speak what you believe to be the "truth" about her (that being that you think she is in error) on another blog, can she silence you there? If so, maybe you ought to move to an Islamic country where they don't allow people to speak against the "Prophet of God." You might be happier there.
I think I'm going to personally alert you when I get one of these challenging posts, Terriergal, so I can get your perspective - LOL. Yea, what SHE said!
Deletehy·poc·ri·sy
ReplyDelete1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.
Chuck says:
http://www.beavertongracebible.org/pastor.html
"Pastors John MacArthur and Steve Lawson are among his living heroes of the faith. He has received great encouragement, challenge, and insight from their preaching, teaching, and writing. The Shepherd’s Conference, hosted by Dr. MacArthur at Grace Community Church, is an annual ministry highlight."
1 Corinthians 6 clearly teaches Christians not to file lawsuits.
John MacArthur teaches against lawsuits:
See "MacArthur's Statement" on this blog
Steve Lawson teaches against Christians suing each other here:
"Stop Airing Your Dirtly Laundry"
http://www.cfbcmobile.org/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=421&sec_id=377&currpage=3&sa_action=
Chuck rejected pastoral mediation. Chuck filed a lawsuit.
More inconsistencies:
From the MSNBC article:
"Church leaders, however, deny ever asking the Smiths to leave and claim her family left of their own accord."
From Chuck O'Neal's 2009 Google review:
Nov 18, 2009
"JulieAnne's Destructive Slander Continues To Whom It May Concern: Almost a year ago JulieAnne and her husband were Biblically put out of Beaverton Grace Bible Church with a group of families and individuals that were engaged in ongoing divisive slander."
Did the Smith's leave of their own accord or were they Biblically put out? You can't have it both ways.
As a former member of this church I can attest to the fact that this is the sort of hypocrisy that went on regularly.
I am curious (not that I doubt, but just want clarification) what sort of fees we are talking about. My understanding is that if he loses he pays them. Is that correct? I have never been sued, so am unsure what kind of fees are associated with this sort of thing.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that he would pay all attorney fees and filing fees. There are two attorneys involved (1 atty representing 2 defendants and 1 atty representing the remaining 2 defendants) and two filing fees. Each filing fee was $505.
DeleteGreat Work Folks, you have the right to your Opinion, and to post the facts of what you witnessed or know about from others. This is to warn others and is of the highest and best good. You did the right thing exposing them, keep up the Good Work, I for ONE, have your back. Email me anything you may need, and tell your attorney to feel free to email me as well Crystal L. Cox, Blogger Sued for Defamation in that same court .. SavvyBroker@Yahoo.com
ReplyDeleteCrystal - we are soul sisters! I know your case. It scared the living daylights out of me and compelled me to lawyer up. How are you doing? It's been a long haul for you! Glad you stopped by.
DeleteI have been reading through your website and I can honestly say that I can relate. I went to a "church" called Set Free for 10 years and this church you are writting about sounds exactly the same. I no longer believe in organized religion because of Set Free and my experiences while attending there.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you are aware or not but there is a website about chruchs that abuse. I looked to see if Beaverton Grace Bible Church was listed with them and it is not. You might want to contact Rick Ross (started the website) and let him know what is going on with them and maybe he can do some investagating and possibly put up opinions or information about this church. It also has some great resources that explain what you should look for, or what defines an abusive leader. The website is http://www.rickross.com/ and this link takes you to the forums http://forum.rickross.com/index.php
I'm adding it to my list. Thanks!
Delete"I no longer believe in organized religion because of Set Free and my experiences while attending there."
DeleteYes, and that is why we need to raise the alarm about spiritual abuse. I'm getting my panties in a wad about churches that make such huge efforts to evangelize and "share the love of Christ", yet abandon their own. Ick. God is not amused.
I read some of Chuck's Press Release. What I saw was a very well, thought out, legalistic, reasoning, for suing someone for defamation. I then realized quite plain and simply.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 6:1-11
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous rinstead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that sthe saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, twhy do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 uI say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. vWhy not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even wyour own brothers!1
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous2 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,3 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And ysuch were some of you. But zyou were washed, ayou were sanctified, byou were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Chuck is taking a very simple and very complete statement and doing everything he can to twist it around and justify it for his purposes.
Chuck, if you are reading this, let me make this very very clear to you. YOU ARE NOT THE WORD OF GOD. CHRIST IS THE WORD OF GOD. TWISTING THE WORD OF GOD FOR YOUR OWN SELFISHNESS AND PRIDE IS BLASPHEMY. Figured it might get Chuck's attention if it was all capitals like that. Man that was exhausting, yelling on the internet hurts the eyes.
Chuck, I pity you. You have already lost this matter. No humility, no understand, no love, no grace. Chuck, you were supposed to be Christ to the world, instead, you are just an instrument of Satan. And I do not listen to or take stalk in the word of those who twist the Word of God.
Do you see that white hanky waving?
DeleteMan, I don't even own a white hanky but I might go buy one just to wave it in agreement with that post!
DeleteWow....is someone being caught not telling the truth regarding some of this? (MacArthur church counsel, how you left) So, so much could be said regarding everything.
ReplyDeleteSo for years now they have sat back and allowed comments from you and they have responded to them, had other church members write reviews to hide yours and have had some of yours removed. Now, suddenly in February, years later, it became unbearable days after your blog started and a lawsuit was necessary? What a huge mistake on the pastor's part because it has brought more attention to your blog, him and the church than you could have ever, ever done on your own with your blog. Even if they were to win the lawsuit, what a huge mistake on his part.
If things are as you have shared, then do not be afraid of how much huffing and puffing comes your way along with threats to blow your house down. Guard your own heart and mind, be truthful in whatever you say, and stand strong.
Regarding help with attorney costs, a thought that came to mind would be to have anything made out to the attorney and not you. Then I do not believe it would interfere with your taxes, but check on that. Just a thought.
One main thing I would like to pass along to your readers is that if anyone feels they are part of an unhealthy church and wish to leave, you will want to officially resign as a member. When that happens, the church can no longer attempt to discipline you and should they attempt to, they could face a legal battle. There is an article on my website about this, that was written in response to a woman who sued her former pastor for slander and won. Please see http://spiritualabuse.org/experiences/lawsuits/separation.html
and the article about the lawsuit: http://spiritualabuse.org/experiences/lawsuits/mark_fogarty.html
I, along with ones from my online support group and Facebook page will be following what happens.
Lois
Well, you see, Lois, he apparently did NOT know Julie Anne very well - despite the fact that I was in his church for 2 years, and very active in music ministry. He surely thought the 'lil housewifey would submit to his imagined spiritual authority and yank the blog down in fear of him.
DeleteDidn't work. He's acting like a bully. I despise bullies who take advantage of people.
Hi Julie Ann,
ReplyDeleteWe were once in an abusive "church" for 11 years. I won't go into it here.
I listened to this about once a month before leaving:
http://www.newreformationpress.com/blog/nrp-freebies/the-gospel-for-those-broken-by-the-church/
and found this book to be quite helpful as well:
http://www.amazon.com/When-People-Are-Big-Small/dp/0875526004
Blessings and Soli Deo gloria
A friend in Oregon
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll make a note of them.
DeleteJulie Anne,
ReplyDeleteWe visited BGBC quite awhile ago when we moved to the Aloha area. The church had a strange feeling to it. (oppressive) We didn't go back. Praying you have found a good Bible believing supportive Church for you and your family. Stay strong in your faith
In my 6+ years at BGBC, I observed that Chuck and those with him sure did enjoy being big fish in their little pond. Well, now he has to swim with the big fish in the the worldwide ocean and he's showing that he is not shark enough to take what he dishes out.
ReplyDelete