I must confess myself mystified as to the nature of 'Justice's' complaint, which seems to be lacking in a certain, shall we say, precision. What exactly is it that he or she is alleging was done to him or her?
- AnonymousMay 17, 2012 3:27 PM@Fredericka
I am Justice. There are details to my story. Unfortunately, part of the oppression and fear that comes from being in a spiritually abusive relationship (in this case at BGBC), is exactly that fear. Fear of being pursued and hunted down as I have watched pastor chuck do to so many people I know.I don't have any fear that he would call what I have to share defamation, I fear him trying to come back into my life to shame me, ridicule me, lie about me, and try to reinsinuate himself into the lives of my family and friends. I still have friends at BGBC. Oh, not those who are permitted to speak to me or of me, but friends that I hope that someday God will bring back into my life if not before we meet in heaven, then there.I know dozens of people who have left and I have watched chuck try to manipulate them even though they were gone from his church. And as more people leave, it's actually heartbreaking to watch some of them try to repair relationships - even among families - that chuck has destroyed with his LIES from his pulpit. And his victims are left questioning not only who they are to our Heavenly Father, but to sort through everything said about the other "defectors" in order to learn what was true and what was fictionalized.
I agree that Julie Anne's purpose wasn't to create a shocking forum to hear description after description of specifics on abuse by chuck. It was to create a safe haven to reach out to those in pain, and to shed light on a topic that I think even most christians are loathe to admit exists.We believe in a Heavenly Father who loves us so much that He is not willing that any should perish. He lays it on our hearts, even commands in His Word that we are to reach out to others, speak His truth in LOVE, in order to draw more of His people into a relationship with Him.It's hard to accept, and then to admit, that your pastor/church is preaching a gospel of works and hatred or intolerance, when in your heart you know that God is NOT that, and He is so much more.Our heartfelt desire is not that any of this should cause another to stumble in his walk or that some would use this as vindication to turn their backs on God. This was started to reach out to those who are hurting, minister to their brokenness, start the healing by surrounding them with God's love and let them know they aren't alone.
I will share more as time goes on, if this is allowed to continue to be that forum. But not to heap more coals on chucks head.It is because my fervent prayer for years has been this: if by my story, just one person can find healing, comfort, courage, and draw close to the Great Physician, then I will know He has graciously allowed me to do work for Him, and again fulfilled His promise to His people, that He is in control even over the affairs of men as Joseph said in Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive".
Amen! Well said.
ReplyDeleteFor clarity, "Amen! Well said JUSTICE." Didn't realize the comments were being moderted and may appear in a different order. :)
ReplyDeleteI saw this clarifying review on Google today: I attended BGBC with my family for about 4 months. After attending churches with watered-down preaching and borderline irreverent worship services, Pastor Chuck's bold preaching of the gospel and the church's zeal for evangelism in the community was commendable. I even went a few times with them on their Friday night evangelism. At one point I really came to like the church, but over time there were several red flags that went up. Appreciation for the pastor was excessive, to the point where one member stated that listening to Chuck preach "is like sitting at the feet of Jesus". Conversations frequently revolved around Chuck somehow. Then I realized people took notice that we would only attend Sunday services, not the Sunday afternoons, Wednesdays, and Friday evangelism. Chuck himself told me that attending Sunday only is insufficient. I started to hear his sermons injected with his own opinions, sarcasm, self-righteous tone, and an overall lack of love and grace. The members seemed unhappy. We never felt like we "fit in" because of the homeschooling elitism. When you try to just quietly leave you will have about four people call you all in one night. It's too bad because on a personal level Pastor Chuck is a likeable guy, but in the context of the church he takes an authoritarian approach. There's just "too much Chuck" in this church. I do not recommend Beaverton Grace Bible Church to anyone.
ReplyDeleteI've heard this story a number of times - the part where you leave and get barraged with phone calls all at once. I found myself nodding to your whole comment.
DeleteThis is a story that so many could identify with - church leaders who use their authority like this seem to share similar traits and tactics. I'm sure someone will read your comment and say "Yes!" that's it!!
Thank you for sharing!
the church we went to would usually get out around 1:00-1:15 pm; if we missed a Sunday, it was nothing for my phone to be ringing off the wall by 1:16! I kid you not!
DeleteAlso, when we would miss a Sunday, we were being made the 'offer to meet you somewhere' on Monday morning so that the preachers wife could pick up our tithe check! lol.. I don't know what their finances looked like but there must have been some mismanaging of funds somewhere because the church buildings mortgage wasn't but a few hundred bucks, then a little for water & electric; the church only had 1 service per week and that was Sunday Morning.. a couple of the members were business owners who were very giving and generous with their offerings.. so could never figure out what the rush to get the money was all about.. it wasn't like we were going to try to steal from God; didn't Paul write that tithing (and baptism) weren't a requirement?!
My sister relayed this story to me yesterday while I was chatting to her about the BGBC issue: She and her husband had been active members of a church in Ekalaka, MT back in the 80s. After her husband had a heart attack, which resulted in him losing his job, they could no longer afford to tithe but continued to go to services. They started noticing a 'chill' toward them. One day, my sister called the pastor's wife, who hung up on her when she said who was calling!
DeleteHere they were in a situation where they truly NEEDED the compassion of the church, and had backs turned on them, all because of money.
I googled the church and found a single review left by the pastor. I asked if that was the pastor they had, and she said it's not, so it's had at least one new pastor since then. (BTW, I flagged the review as 'conflict of interest' and it's not there this morning.)
My sister said that she never felt comfortable in that church since they moved there (or the town for that matter; she got a very strong message that outsiders are not welcomed, which is reflected in the census numbers dropping consistently since the 60s, while the population of the state is growing). It so crushed her that she hasn't been to any church since.
She is now very comfortable with owning her own spirituality, and not "receiving grace" through someone else's filter.
Same story, different people, different church. It's sickening. And also the same result = your sister hasn't gone to church since. It's so sad! Thank you for sharing. This must be stopped.
DeleteI am so feeling humbled, honored and yet United with you all. I was kicked out of "Oklahoma Baptist College" Dr. Jim Vineyard was there when I was there, and like many of this type, now his son is main pastor there.
ReplyDeleteWhen I returned home, several awful church experiences occurred. I'm only now trying to write about them because of your example.
klasieprof: Good for you! And if you like, I will post it here in the personal stories area. Send to bgbcsurvivors@gmail.com and be sure to mention you give me permission to post.
DeleteI'm sorry you went through your experience. You are not alone!
IANAL, but this lawsuit is going to fail. I simply cannot imagine a judge holding for BGBC in this case.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming that you will be counter-suing for your own legal fees and associated costs (save your receipts).
So at the end of this, BGBC will not have accrued its anticipated half-mil from you, but will, in fact, be in the hole for the cost of its legal fees AND yours (and that's assuming that you don't hit this idiot pastor with a harassment suit).
That's likely to be at least five figures.
Which will be coming out of the collection plates.
Oh, the congregants are going to LOVE this.
I don't know how pastors get hired, exactly, but if I were a minister looking for a church, I would be retyping my resume, and trying to time mailing it out so the elders receive it the day after "Pastor Chuck" gets the book thrown at him in court.
Which he will.
Ultimately, God will knock Chuck O'Neal down off his high horse. In the meantime a Wikipedia article for Chuck O'Neal would be a nail in the coffin for his position as a pastor. It would have to be unbiased and factual, of course. If I was under his leadership at any time and had enough information I would make that entry.
ReplyDeleteanon 11:11 and then get sued, just saying
ReplyDeleteYou're right. That is the "fear" that is there. You post a negative Google review or blog posts, you might be sued. If you post on Julie Anne's blog and especially leave your name, be prepared to get sued. No wonder most of the comments are Anonymous.
DeleteI've told former members to make sure their homeowner's insurance has a rider for personal injury lawsuits just in case because not many people carry $5-10 thousand dollars on hand to retain a lawyer. Fear was used to control free speech. That is not right. Can you imagine even having that conversation with former church members???? Who does that? To gear up in case they get sued? That's crazy!
Anonymous 11:11 --
ReplyDeleteWhile the vindictive part of me wants to agree with you about the Wikipedia article, I don't think I could do it with any kind of clear conscience before Christ. I know nothing of this situation first-hand. I only know what I have read of this blog, which has been all of it since February. :~) However, as much sin as Chuck has committed, I haven't yet read anything to convince me that he is not a brother. He is incredibly misguided and in serious need of some accountability which will lead him to humbly bowing in repentance before his Maker, but I think he should still be treated as brother--in love. For those who relate to him, the goal should be restoration and the glorification of God in him; it should NOT be his public shame or the destruction of his church. I daresay that many who attend that church truly love God and seek to follow him. This situation--no matter how it ends--will be very painful for them, and we (the Christian public) should not be doing anything to needlessly add to that pain.
Daniel W., son of a former "Chuck"
Sadly, Chuck has removed the opportunity for restoration by shutting down all methods of communication from former members. He turned down mediation offered by a local pastor.
DeleteDaniel W, (from Anon 11:11)
DeleteYou're right. Authoring a Wikipedia article for the purpose of public shame and revenge would be sin in itself. My thinking was more along the lines of whatever would be public record such as this lawsuit as well as a "criticisms" section regarding, say, generalities of events indicating his leadership style. Experiences such as you would find on Julie Anne's blog are more of a personal nature and need not be described in detail. It may help others to take note and be watchful before they seek membership at his church. However, if God does a work in his heart and he repents, the Wikipedia account of his past remains and I'm not sure how or if that can be removed.
I have been feeling rather sick to my stomach when asked by someone who is a friend and leader in the same church we attend to remove a comment from my facebook. I have been very uncomfortable with the fact of how my church have been mismanaging funds and it's waste. What do I mean by this.....Pastors have announced certain programs such as youth programs, Literacy Programs, prisons programs, etc......the people sacrifice their money as to see this as God's plan for the church. After the programs manifest and people have literally given their money, then after some years the senior Pastor closes it down. I am a leader in my church as and see so many things that are not Biblical Based and it deeply grieves and disturbs me.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this is what I post and was told to remove from my facebook.
Church leaders demand a tithe of your income - Many Bible scholars agree tithing was an Old Testament practice discontinued by the early churches, as was worshipping on the Sabbath and animal sacrifices. In fact, the word 'tithe' is only mentioned in the New Testament to describe giving under Old Testament law. Paul's instruction to New Testament believers is "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Cor. 9:7, NIV) If you want to give your church 10% (tithe) of your income, fine, but it is be YOUR decision. Paul states, "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Gal. 3:25, NIV) Church leaders using scare tactics and intimidation based on Old Testament law to illicitly obtain tithes are in biblical error. For more information on tithing, we recommend the book Perspectives on Tithing.
The problem was.....Paul's instruction to New Testament believers is "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Cor. 9:7, NIV) If you want to give your church 10% (tithe) of your income, fine, but it is be YOUR decision. Paul states, "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Gal. 3:25, NIV)
the two words that bothered them was "Each man DECIDED" and it is YOUR decision.....
I am truly feeling depressed and sick to my stomach at this moment.
What is going on within the Churches? What I see now is the interest of "MONEY, MONEY, MONEY." THEY MAKE ALL THE DECISIONS AND MANIPULATES BY SAYING THAT THEY KNOW WHAT THE SCRIPTURES IS TRULY SAYING.
I AM SO SICK!
Yes, so they are seeing you as a troublemaker for sharing the truth - Scripture. Yes. I've seen this before.
DeleteHave you met with them privately regarding this issue? That would be an important step to take.
Julie Anne
Hello Julie,
DeleteI personally did not, but many members did addressed the Pastor but he refused to listen as far as I know. There was a blog in regard to this but sadly, it turned to a gossip column.
The information wasn't a productive one like yours. You give valid information and Biblically sound like "The Wartburg Watch," "Wade Burleson" and "FBC Jax Watchdog. Honestly, you guys have SAVED MY LIFE in regard to giving insightful and Biblical information. I mean God used you to clarify things that have been disturbing my spirit for many years. But because it is my church of many years, I feel as if I am in mourning.
My spirit have been grieved by my friend's reprimanding me due to the post on Facebook. I was told that I am very "CONTROVERSIAL." and because I am a leader as well and will teaching things that they don't teach.
I am like the Berean....I search and search and cry out for understanding of His Word, then God shows me 'TRUTH." His Truth transforms my mind. But why does it OFFEND CHRISTIANS? I believe that they know the truth but don't want the TRUTH "interfering" their personal agenda or motives.....because it happens to be their paycheck. ( my friend works for the church). I among people that are afraid to ask question in fear that they may lose their position (being a leader or deacon), job, or ministry. I myself have felt the 'fear" in my guts. Fear of being asked to step down in my position of leadership. Fear of being shun my brothers and sister because I am speaking heresy or Scriptures that they believe is Biblical based. It's scary and lonely. I have NO ONE TO TALK TO ABOUT THIS MATTER, because everyone I know goes to the same church and know one another. I saw they all COMPROMISED so to not lose their position or their jobs. I have seen the COMPROMISING and it's SICKENING! I must say that I have been in a COMPROMISING POSITION....HOW? BE BEING QUIET AND ACT LIKE THE ELEPHANT IS NOT THERE!
I really don't know what to do at this moment because I totally don't trust anyone in my church. I am aware that the my senior pastor have his spys.
Please pray for me Julie....I feel a sense of entrapment and feel much afraid of 'COMPROMISING" my walk with the Lord. I want to be able to "stand" EVEN IF IT'S GOING TO COST ME.
Boy does your story sound familiar!
DeleteFriend, you do have someone to talk to . . . right here! Yesterday, over 10,000 readers, the day before over 17,000 readers. Your voice is being heard now!!! WOOHOOO!!!!
Make up a fictitious name and keep posting here. I want to keep up with you and be a support to you and let others have the opportunity to support you. I will pray for you and your situation. Thank you so much for sharing your heart.
Readers: Do you have anything to share to Anonymous for encouragement?
Hello Anonymous,
DeleteI am so sorry to hear what you are going through. I feel your pain. I understand your fear and isolation. The only answer we have is in the Word of God.
Psalm 118:6
The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?
My husband and I were not only members of BGBC, along with Julie Anne, but my husband was also employed by the church. We saw things as time went on that disturbed us more and more and were quite aware that questioning the pastor would be costly. In the end, my husband lost his job, income, and we are shunned. The Lord Jesus has been so faithful in all these difficulties.
You will not be popular for pointing out the errors of leaders in your church....but DO IT ANYWAY! Remain faithful to the Word of God. Remember that Jesus was hated by the religious leaders of his day. Be willing to stand alone if necessary.
Paul said in 2 Tim.4:16
At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them.
Galations 4:16
Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
Jude 3
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Luke 6:22-23
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man’s sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy!
For indeed your reward is great in heaven,
For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
My husband and I will be praying for you. I mean that! Please continue to post so you can be encouraged and STAND FAST!
In the love of Christ,
Michelle
Anon 11:28 - - Justice sent me an e-mail and would like to contact you. I have the e-mail address. Can you send me an e-mail and I will put you two in contact with each other?
Deletebgbcsurvivors@gmail.com
Thank you, Michelle for your words of encouragement
DeleteYou are most welcome, Chris. I like your name. We have a son named Chris. May the Lord give you strength in this difficult time.
DeleteWhile at Bible College, the Church, the 25 bus routes (more than that as several buses had double routes), the Numerous Asst. Pastors, wives, ALL STUDENTS, were mandated to a sign your paycheck and put it in the plate Sunday, dubbed, "GIVE IT YOUR ALL" Sunday. If you didn't comply...it was noted, you were "Called on " for correction.
ReplyDeleteHOW MUCH FAITH DO YOU HAVE??????? GIVE IT ALLL!!!!!! It made my skin crawl then, and still does now decades later. Yes, It's been DECADES. The feeling of non conforming, being in "Direct spiritual disobedience" to those "IN AUTHORITY OVER YOU"....was extreme to say the least.
you weren't in direct spiritual disobedience, no where in the scriptures does it say that you have to 'Give It All' with regards to your paycheck.. that's a lie and they manipulated your emotions into feeling guilty for something you were not guilty of in the first place..
DeleteLet your skin rest, go get a massage and pamper yourself; you never did anything wrong to start with :)
Amen, MisDeaSays!
DeleteJustice,
ReplyDeleteBlessings. And, you are forgetting PREVENTION!!!! This has been going on for 42 years. Healing is great, but PREVENTION IS BETTER!!! Your story will sound an alarm for others. My ministry researches New Calvinism from which all of this misery has come since 1970. Your story is heard so often around here that we catch ourselves almost being indifferent to it. In the New Calvinist church that I was a part of parishioners actually fled the state to escape the persecution of the elders. Things you have written, and: the guy who commented here about them trying to control what he posted on FB;the tithe thing; trying to control people after they have left; slander in order to neutralize the creditability and testimony of others; ding-dong-ding-dong-ding-dong;just bells going off over and over again with every sentence.
Enough misery sis. Get your war face on and sound the alarm. Others can be spared the misery. Tell your story. People are starting to notice that there are too many similar stories about the same people and their doctrine. Clearcreek Chapel can no longer do what they do behind closed doors; no ministry is owed that by anybody. To the contrary, it is our duty to warn others.
paul
LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE this comment!!!!!!
DeleteCalvinism seems to be a belief that only those who are Calvinist make it to heaven, that calvinism is the ONLY way, and that calvinists get to judge anyone and everyone 'they think' are or are not 'christians'...
I assume you're familiar with Charles Spurgeon, A.W. Pink. and that other one Riley...
My ex preacher has put them on pedestals much higher than Jesus!
Thank you for being as kind as to LISTEN! I have been told that I must be very careful what I say because it may sound too 'RADICAL." But in the other hand I was told that I made people 'THINK."
ReplyDeleteAnonymous is now Chris.
Nice to meet you, Chris :)
Delete1 John 2:27
ReplyDeleteBut the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
If you will do a short research on 'Calvinism', as in John Calvin, and also the writings of Charles Spurgeon and A.W. Pink, I think you might begin to see where some of that pastors influences could be coming from..
Your old preachers teachings sound strangly familiar..
Their beliefs can't 'tolerate' being called out by a woman, even if the man is 100% in the wrong.. God Help the woman who might have to stand up for her child or children against them; you'll really get it then, I know, I did just that and now I'm labeled 'a woman who has attacked Gods church'...eh, pish posh hog wash! God knows what I was talking about and Jesus has scriptures in the bible that backs ME, a WOMAN, up!
I keep looking for the 'Like' button!!
ReplyDeleteIt is soooo refreshing to read other peoples experiences; I find myself shaking my head so hard and saying, 'yes...Yes... YES, that's EXACTLY what WE dealt with!!!'
To be super clear here: I am NOT trying to be defiant towards the Lords ways; I AM going to be defiant towards a self centered, self serving man who is using his 'power in the pulpit' to abuse, there IS a difference; a HUGE difference!!
Love YOU, Julie Anne for causing all this 'commotion', LOL.. Seriously, the christian world needs it and I believe without a doubt that God is using you and others like you to cause an awakening that will run off the bad ones who are using Gods word for evil!!
Keep up the good work!!
Julie Anne,
ReplyDeleteGeneva Reformed Style preaching is more focused on their own Methodologies rather than the Message itself. The abuses I've witnessed embraces "Judge Theology" that can hold congregations captive the same way the Pharisee's judged the Sinner and Tax Collector.
It seemed the Pharisee's had a problem of forgiving the Sinner and Tax Collecter.
I wonder if there is a spirit of unforgiveness directed at people who are considered Doctrinal Challenges at Grace. If Unforgiveness is haunting anybody including the leadership at Grace, it will poison the Congregation.
I have suffered a great deal from questioning a Pastor's Methodology of which I considered very abusive and unlike anything I ever heard.
The gossip and shunning I experience by a few, topped off by a Pastor that refused to accept my heart felt apology for Judging his delivery of Scriptures, because he listen to reckless and false gossip from his friends, wasn't worth it.
I know he was carrying previous pain at certain members of a former church and possibly from the pain of growing up in a broken home, directed toward a parent.
Meaning he may have harbored unforgiveness that he brought into our church. His last sermon taught, he is going to "watch who ever" before he accepts an apology or forgives someone.
I lost a lot of sleep asking God to guide me. I'm sure you have as well. Ask God to put closure in this matter, which is what I did.
The only thing I can offer you is end this lawsuit, by ending this blog as fast as you can and go find another church, because this is true God is going to judge us all.
(the Pastor's case is weak, based on what I read on Grace website)
In my situation I quit attending. (being the only church with a preacher in town, made it difficult)
The problem goes beyond Calvinism.
Julie Anne,
The best advice I can give you is find a good Christian Church that teaches the Bible. Find a Preacher with a balanced and sound Bible Doctrine who isn't consumed with "Methodology". If you don't here any teaching of God's commanding us to unconditionally forgive one another, run away as fast as you can.
It could take awhile in finding a good church because "Geneva" or "Heavy Handed" abusive type preaching is becoming withspread in the SBC. I would check to see where your Pastor attended seminary.
I would avoid going National with this, and rely on God to take care of this matter.
When I see your story on "Google" under the Huffington Post one of the most Liberal online newspapers it saddens me, because it may give all of us a spiritual black-eye.
In Christ
David
Hi David,
DeleteI'm in a new church, but I'm not shutting down this blog. Do you not see what is happening here? God is at work. You don't shut down what God is doing, you come alongside!
It's interesting how Christians care more about the church's reputation than the abuse of God's people. I believe the blog has become a way for Christian that are spiritually awakening to this matter and that we are not alone. It's a OUTCRY FOR HELP. Pastors and Leaders have powerfull influence on the congregation. As one of the leaders of the church I have come to know many Christians that so Love the Lord Jesus but lack knowledge of God's Word. Christian memorize more what the pastor preaches than the Scriptures. Pastors and Leaders use the Scripture as to defend their position and many times they make you think and feel that you are the one with the problem. And because they are Leaders they know the WAY, The TRUTH, and the way of LIFE. The new sin now
Deleteis "DON'T ASK QUESTIONS".....just do as you are told and for Jesus. Honestly, I have learned more with reading
blogs like Julie's than the teachings in my church. And what I mean about that is that is that in the blog we expose the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM!
After I have posted.....I have prayed so earnestly in regard to my friend's interpretation of that Scripture and asked her what sin did I committ? Her replied was none. Then why did you reprimanded me in such a harsh way? Her replied was "fear"...my heart went out for her and we wept together...leaders are fearful as well....we are simply being told that this is the way it is...orders by our executive Pastor.....In regard to 2Cor 9:7 and she actually believed what it says.....that IT IS OUR DECISIONS TO GIVE ACCORDINGLY! 10% doctrine was taken from old testaments into the new. Its your decision to give your 10% more or less! So my question to her was....who's commandments should we obey?
While Leaders and Pastors are well taken care of.....they have the million dollars homes, the cars, stocks, life insurance, dress fashionable, have iPhone, iPads, applle computers, gps, babysitters, children's Education, they eat very well....like good expensive steaks...what I am saying is that they live rather well and comfortly....while many are suffering under this economic crises...many people in the congeagation are unemployed. My church has 12,000 people and half of our members are unemployed!
Now with all that being said, you might think that I am speaking like someone who lacks FAITH.....but what I am talking about is BEING PRACTICAL! Proverbs speaks about being wise with what is given to us! The Bible tells us to care for our family and to PROVIDE FOR THEM! I don't believe that Shepherds that oversees God's flock are meant to live better than the sheeps. Their expectations of us is to bring ALL into the store house. And if you don't know YOUR Bible you will get manipulated to these distorted beliefs.
Jesus asked Peter do you love me....Peter said yes Lord I love you....then feed and care for my Sheeps! Not feed and care yourselves.
I am very thankful for Julie for her Bravery and Courage to take a stand against these wolves that hangs in the midst of God's sheeps.
God bless you all that Have taken a stand in the frontline for those Christian that have been wounded in the house of friends.
Chris,
DeleteWhat I see that started this mess is "Doctrinal Indifference" that exploded and got out of hand.
Things got magnified and both Julie Anne and her Pastor began retaliating against each other.
If the Pastor embraced a Reformed Geneva Style Preaching, which a lot of "Reformed" preachers embrace then his style was extremely aggressive.
Geneva Style Preaching can be very "heavy handed" and burden Congregations. I've seen Pastors rebuke members and question their salvation who find it difficult swallowing his "Methodology".
Another words sometimes Pastors force feed their "Methodologies" his down the throats of Congregation Members while proclaiming "Truth" using scriptures to rebuke and defend their "Methodology".
I'm positive that there has been exaggerations on both sides that is the catalyst of the Pastor and Julie Anne of assasinating each others charactor.
Julie Anne has expressed her concerns of certain members integrity, raising awareness within Grace Bible Church and other Churches to take precautionary measures to protect members families. So she has voiced her concerns and accomplished her goals.
She may have carried much of these burdens on by herself when she should've taken a step back and allow the Holy-Spirit to share those burdens with her.
I have challenged both the Pastor to pull his Lawsuit and for Julie Anne to pull this blog.
I think the both of them are just going in for the "Kill" and if they don't stop this, it is going to end badly for the both of them.
In Christ
David
"She may have carried much of these burdens on by herself when she should've taken a step back and allow the Holy-Spirit to share those burdens with her."
DeletePerhaps the Holy Spirit did share these burdens with me. Could that be a possibility?
God can work through all things. Even frivolous lawsuits.
Speaking of 'going in for the kill' as David calls it, I'd like to call attention to something:
DeleteDavid wrote:
If the Pastor embraced a Reformed Geneva Style Preaching, which a lot of "Reformed" preachers embrace then his style was extremely aggressive.
Dave,
I wonder how familiar with that 'style' of preaching you are? Do you know where it comes from?
Do you know who started it? Also, could you explain to me WHY the name of Jesus has been tagged onto it, as if Jesus himself could or would EVER be so gut wrenchingly evil towards someone who disagreed with him?!
Can you show me in scriptures where Jesus Christ EVER had someone burned at the stake for disagreeing with him?! Or where Jesus ordered a group 'drowned' for disagreeing with him?! Can you, David?!
John Calvin and Michael Servetus are names I will NEVER forget for as long as I live!
IF you do read up on it, be sure to take it ALL in; it's really quite disgusting to say the least and should have Christian preachers and pastors all across the world questioning John Calvins TRUE motives!
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/michael-servetus.htm
Julie, I woke up today thanking God for You and praying that He will be with you all the way in this bogus lawsuit.
Thank you for praying. That means a lot to me :)
DeleteI do agree that among the Christian community that there are "doctrinal differences", in the book of Acts Paul preached the gospel and by people repenting and coming together in one faith and the Christian church began. The Christian church began from teaching and preaching the Gospel. Christians we identify as followers of Jesus Christ, BUT after that came all of these doctrinal…..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
DeleteI believe that the church is in disunity because of “doctrinal indifferences” and that is why Paul said in Corinthians. For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul?
I believe that God is more concern about His relationship with His children than the doctrinal teaching of men. Do we love God’s commandments more than the teaching of men? There is too many theological squabbling among the Body of Christ. I do believe that God has called Pastors, teachers of the Word, Evangelist to edify God’s people. I believe that God created us for Himself and we as his children gather together to WORSHIP GOD IS SPIRIT AND TRUTH and breaking bread (Word of God) with one another. Do we love the traditional man’s doctrinal teachings than the commandments of God. Interesting, history is repeating itself. Isn’t that one of the reason Jesus was killed?
Now let me clarify something, there are pastors and leaders that truly love God and are led by God Spirit and obey His Commandments and lead without compromising the Word of God with convictions and with reverence for the Lord. I love my brothers and sisters in my church, and that include my pastor and leaders. What I had troubled with was the mismanaging of the funds. This has affected and put many that was aware of this in turmoil. But we PRAYED for our Pastor.
I mentioned before that there was a blog that exposed the mismanaging of funds and although it brought such pain to my pastor and and to many of us leaders, it was taken as a lesson and it brought my Pastor to repent and be more responsible with God’s money. I believed with all of my heart that God worked it out for good. My Pastor is a repented man and I see a deep reverence of the Lord in him. I do see the fruits of repentance.
I really believe that Julie is an instrument to address this kind of abuse.
We were warned about false teacher in the Bible. The Bible forbids us to NOT EVEN EAT WITH THEM. Jesus went away and said that he will send us a helper, the third person Holy Spirit to be our guide and teacher.
What Julie is doing is exactly what Rob Bell wrote on his book, “Blue Elvis’….(now I am not a fan of Rob Bell, but I must say that I really enjoyed it. Not only does Rob do an excellent job bringing Jewish traditions and rabbinical customs into his writing, but he also writes with a bit of humor and satire.
DeleteApparently, his book has caused quite a stir at Amazon, but from my initial read, I have to say that I don't see anything written that is contrary to the scriptures (or in Rob's words - my interpretation of scripture...) But the controversy has to be good for something! #484 on Amazon.com! Nice Rob...
One of the great points that Rob makes in his book is how many people follow doctrine more than we follow Jesus. He says (describing someone who is all about defending his doctrine):
Each of the core doctrines for him is like an individual brick that stacks on top of the others. If you pull one out, the whole wall starts to crumble. It appears quite strong and rigid, but if you begin to rethink or discuss even one brick, the whole thing is in danger. God is bigger than any wall. God is bigger than any religion. God is bigger than any worldview. God is bigger than the Christian faith. ...one of the thigns that happens in a brickworld: you spend a lot of time talking about how right you are. Which of course leads to how wrong everybody else is. Which then leads to defending the wall. You rarely defend the things you love. You enjoy them and tell others about them and invite others to enjoy them with you. The problem with brickianity is that walls inevitably keep people out. Often it appears as though you have to agree with all of the bricks exactly as theya re or you can't join.
Thank you, Julie!
Julie Anne,
ReplyDeleteI thank God for your willingness to have a place where other church/spiritual abuse survivors can speak, be heard, and helped. We as believers are asked to help carry one another's burdens. Sometimes, just being able to freely tell our stories starts the healing process. I pray that you and your family are strengthened through this process and that God's hand continues to cover you.
I really appreciate your kind words and prayers :)
DeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe Geneva Style Preaching many say is an attempt by the "Reformed Calvinist" to imitate John the Baptist who they consider a "Fire and Brimstone" Preacher.
I have endured a Pastor who didn't disclosed his Doctrine. What I did identify early in his tenure was "heavy handed" and "abusive" preaching focusing on sin.
His Method as describe in a blog of somebody he mentored was this:
He is guiding the congregation with "Exegetical Style Preaching of Teaching Difficult Text during the Main Sunday Service"
I felt he embraced the "Method" more the "Message"
I made an attempt to identify his Methodology with him but I didn't ask the right questions. He said he was teaching "Truth". He knew I was struggling with his Methodology and all the while he kept his Doctrine a mystery to me and even the Elders of the Church.
I became a "Doctrinal Challenge"
If he had disclosed the 5 Points of TULIP and completely disclosed that he was a "Reformed
New Calvinist" at least I could've realized if I was going to leave the Church or stay, much sooner than I did.
He constantly questioned the Salvation of the Congregation going so far as saying that he didn't see enough persecution and suffering in the Church. It never occurred to me that we needed to wear our suffering on our sleeves.
The Church was losing their Joy of knowing Jesus.
When he knew that many were also were struggling he used the pulpit to rebuke the Congregation suggesting that he is there to "Preach the Word" and that he wasn't there to teach "Self-Love" and "Tickle Ears".
He never offered the opportunity for any invitation to seek salvation and make a decision to repent and receive Jesus through his blood for the forgiveness of sins. No alter calls or even within ours pews. I even wondered if he considered himself knowingly saved.
I discovered a couple a months ago he was a Calvinist. When I disclosed it to an Elder he retaliated against the Church and resigned. His ministry looking back was probably focused on "Total Depravity".
There are Congregations that embrace Hyper Calvinism and that is between them and God.
Julie Anne
You have succeeded publicly of raising your concerns of the integrity of certain members at Grace Baptist Church. I'm sure Grace and other Churches are more precautionary in protecting their members.
You have succeeded publicly of disclosing your concerns about "Heavy Handed" Methodologies that many New and Hyper Calvinist embrace.
I watched Adrian Rogers sermon on forgiveness. If you felt that Pastor Chuck embraced an "Abusive" view of scriptures and directed it to you and others you have to forgive him. Like I had to forgive my Pastor.
When I offered my Pastor a heartfelt apology for Judging his Methodology (even though I still didn't know what that was) he refused to forgive me. Claiming I was maligning against him, I later found out he listen to some false gossip about me.
He later preached why he doesn't forgive people using certain scriptures to manipulate and justify why he doesn't forgive.
I finally realized things that he shared in his tenure that he had unresolved issues from his past.
Unforgivness is an ugly poison for anyone to bear.
In Matt. 6:15 God commanded us to forgive our brother otherwise he won't forgive us.
I think unforgiveness may be an ugly little sin that many Hyper-Calvinist practice on people they consider a "Doctrinal Challenge".
They make premature and reckless observations and make conclusions about people they don't even know.
Then things get out of hand.
Maybe you should use your blog as way to lead people to Christ. I think you have accomplished raising your concerns. Please erase anything Grace Bible or Chuck O'Neal.
In Christ
David
This blog chronicles my story and experiences. BGBC and Chuck O'Neal are part of my story. Interestingly, people from all over are reading my story and identifying it as "their" story. These kinds of stories need to be told.
DeleteJulie Anne,
ReplyDeleteIf you feel Pastor Chuck has an abusive interpretation of scriptures and if you feel he was abusive to you, did you forgive him?
There is a war going on in the Southern Baptist Convention with Doctrinal Indifference for several years. I have been researching Reformed New Calvinist/Hyper Calvinist movement in an attempt to understand why some of them are so aggressive, when I discovered your blog.
Most of these guys are consumed with Methodology rather than Message and they don't even know it.
If you feel you have been wronged you need to forgive him. I don't see any evidence coming from you in your Blog. And forgiveness should be part of all of our stories.
In Christ
David
Dear Brother David,
ReplyDeleteJuliAnne may one day be able to honestly forgive her old preacher but right now I believe she is trying to focus on some of the abuses that go on inside the so called 'house of worship' all over this nation so rather than continue to try to rush her, force her or strong arm her into forgiving that man 'right now', just back off and let her do what she feels she is being led to do because honestly David, you are begining to appear just as harsh and heavy handed as the very ones you yourself have spoken about, and I'm pretty sure that is not your intention, right?
All of this will get resolved on GODS timetable, and God knows Julie Annes heart and also, God is a PATIENT God so I'm sure he understands completely.
May I ask: how can you forgive someone who has never asked to be forgiven?
ReplyDeleteHow can Jesus forgive someone who never goes to him for forgiveness?
True repentence runs both ways and to expect JulieAnne to forgive that man before he has ever even asked to be forgiven seems an awful lot like trying to get her to admit that she is the one who is 'wrong' for calling attention to a problem that is obviously much bigger than you, me or her ever imagined..
That man may not be sorry one bit for the things he has been a part of; he may be so stiff necked and arrogant, self righteous and high minded that he thinks himself too 'good' a christian to ask forgiveness..
One things is for sure: time will tell his true heart and motives; whether they are for evil or good!
Spiritual Abuse is one of the clearest and most precisely defined teachings to be found in the pages of the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ devoted a considerable portion of His ministry to addressing it.
ReplyDeleteThe writings of the Old Testament prophets are filled with examples and denunciations of Spiritual Abuse, but perhaps the clearest words ever uttered by such a prophet on the subject of spiritual abuse are found in Ezekiel chapter 34, where I read:
The word of the Lord came to me: "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them."
~Ezekiel 34:1-6
AND WE WONDER WHY OUT KIDS ARE LITERALLY BEING BULLIED TO DEATH IN SCHOOLHOUSES ACROSS THE NATION!!
ReplyDeleteTHINK THEY'RE LEARNING IT FROM PEOPLE LIKE CHUCK O'NEAL AND HIS GOONIES??