Thursday, August 16, 2012

Buh-Bye Pastor Edwin Young

Pride goes before destruction,
    and a haughty spirit before a fall.  Proverbs 16:18   

I think there was a reason why our Wednesday evening services were not taped.  The truth would have been undeniably exposed.  Instead, we are left to deal with people like FB who say our problem is that we have an issue of authority with our former pastor and we are chronic complainers and grumblers.  

Edwin Young, a pastor from Junction City, Kansas wasn't as smart as our former pastor as far as recording evidence.  In this video (audio) clip, you get to hear obnoxious "preaching", shaming, belittling, trash-talking women, etc.  A whole lot of anger rises up within me when I hear stuff like this.

Why do I post this?  Because sometimes people get sucked into a church and their "normal" is really not normal at all.  Sometimes it takes listening to something like this or reading another person's story - to have it one step removed - in order to make the connection.  I think this is why Jesus told parables.  His stories resonated better that way.  

I have a hard time thinking that I allowed myself to remain under abusive teaching for two years (whoa - I just noticed my choice of words - "remain under" - wow - that sure slipped out - I was "under"??????    I'm going to stew on that for a bit.  Is it okay to be under someone's teaching?)    I don't know how someone could remain at a church like this.  And what really irritates me is how the men seem to enjoy this kind of trash talk on women.  Gang mentality?   What would it be like for a wife to sit next to her husband while he's getting excited about trashing women?  I know what I'd be thinking:  "Oh, yes, honey, I've got some good supper for you when we get home."  Can you say, "Kibbles and Bits"?    

A worthless man plots evil, and his speech is like a scorching fire. Proverbs 16:27

It doesn't stop there.  Evidently there is a history of abuse going on at that church.  Edwin Young abruptly resigned and something fishy is going on with his son as reported here:

Junction City Church Rocked By Scandal 

JUNCTION CITY, Kan. (WIBW) -- The congregation at a Junction City church has been left stunned in light of an alleged sex scandal and police investigation. 
Sources say Edwin Young, the former pastor at Faith Tabernacle Apostolic Church recently and abruptly resigned. This week, his son, 25-year-old Jordan Young, the church’s music minister, was arrested by Junction City Police on suspicion of sex crimes involving children. Those close to the church say he also works in the youth ministry. 
He was taken into custody at the Junction City Police Department at 11:30 AM on Monday, August 13, 2012 for Aggravated Indecent Liberties With a Child, Attempted Criminal Sodomy and Solicitation of a Child.

But wait . . . . there's more.  In this audio clip you get to hear the pastor call women "heifers" and men "oxen".  Amazing theatrics here: yelling, nearly crying, carrying on so much that he can hardly catch his breath.  Yea, the world is watching pastors like this.  

Today is the 16th of the month and here are verses from Proverbs 16 that have much wisdom and could be applied to this situation. 

Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord;     be assured, he will not go unpunished. Proverbs 16:5 
Good sense is a fountain of life to him who has it,    but the instruction of fools is folly.  Proverbs 16:22 

Gracious words are like a honeycomb,    sweetness to the soul and health to the body.  Proverbs 16:24 

There is a way that seems right to a man,    but its end is the way to death.  Proverbs 16:25 

For more information, has compiled more on this story here.  


  1. Have you considered talking to Lindsey at WIBW, she is investigating the Faith Tabernacle stories and is looking for people who would be willing to be interviewed to help shed some light on the horrid things that have happened at Faith Tabernacle. You can email her at I attended FT back under Westburg -- and the truth needs to be told.

    1. Unfortunately, I do not know anyone from FT. I have read there is far more than what I have highlighted above.

      I hope that people will come forward and tell their experiences. In our case, people were and are afraid to talk for fear of being sued (as he did with me) or other forms of stalking behavior.

      People need to be bold so that the truth is exposed and bully pastors will be shown for who they really are: anti-shepherds. Sadly, this type of behavior is happening all over. Some people who leave these types of abusive churches never return.

    2. I have been in contact with Lindsey Rogers and kept her updated as to the material the website is providing. She asked to interview me, but I am not local. She is really wanting to connect with current members, which will be difficult considering the mindset at the church.

      Sirena, please feel free to contact me via the website. I believe I have seen you post elsewhere on the internet.

      Julie Anne, there is so very much more than what you have highlighted. I wish there was not. We are attempting to get out the story, but to do it in a proper manner. The videos of audio clips are being provided so that people may hear for themselves. In cases like this, as you are aware, some would simply dismiss us sharing that certain things were said or done. With documenting proof such as these videos, it cannot be denied. Countless hours have been involved in trying to pull together and make this material available. Perhaps it will also wake some up, who are yet there, being able to listen again without being caught up in the moment and pressure of the service. (While internet has been outlawed, a number of members do get online and watch YouTube videos. The videos showed on Google within an hour of uploading them.) And there was pressure to "get behind" the preaching. You might be seen and called out for supporting or being whatever was being attacked.

      That is part of the answer as to why people didn't just leave the church there. I am working on an article in an attempt to explain why. To the outsider it is unfathomable as to why anyone would remain or put up with such unloving and abusive preaching.

      Thanks for your blog post on Young. I'll be sure it gets linked to on the website in a few minutes. And when I am able, there will be an article on the site about what happened to you and the other defendents in the lawsuit....

    3. Oh yea, I'm sure there is more to this story, Lois. I did a little Google search and read some yuck. But this is sound clip clear and evident. There's no missing it, that's why I posted it. Thanks for working on this, Lois. It is a clear example of what is going on in many churches - bullying and degrading people from the pulpit.

      We stayed at our former church for 2 years - and the longer you stay someplace, your creepo meter loses it's effectiveness. This video will be very helpful for others who have similar pastors and may have been blinded.

    4. "anti-shepherds" = "wolves"

  2. I meant to add: (Regarding the attacking video and what the minister said at camp and why people were not standing when he preached it.) The camp meeting minister said ‘He that desireth a wife desireth a good thing.' Thing. He called women things.

    1. That's how the scripture is written. Old British English. It's not meant to be offensive.

    2. The main article we have posted, in an attempt to share some of what has happened and the background of the church, is found here.

      If you are interested in the story, be sure to check out the links in it to additional material. For awhile, the page will most likely be updated on a daily basis (sometimes several times during a day).

    3. It isn't meant to be offensive in the Bible, obviously, but the minister used it to call women 'things.' That's why those at camp didn't get excited over what the minister said.

    4. I personally wouldn't get worked up over the use of "thing" in general - as I can see it to be old English as Anon mentioned above. But if it was used in the context of degrading women, then I definitely see why it would be offensive.

    5. To my knowledge, Julie Anne, it was used in an offensive manner.

  3. Is it just me or is not really making any points in all this hollering and carrying on?

    1. I just listened to part of a sermon by "Paul's" pastor. It had the same kind of carrying on and theatrics. We need to expose this nonsense.

    2. If you add a few "comeon somebody" it sounds just like my ex-pastor.

    3. I want to compile a list of expressions like that, Paul. If what he was saying was right on, he wouldn't need to say "comeon somebody", his words would speak for themselves. He's egging them on with emotional hype. It's a sick control tactic.

      I compare it to my refuge church where the preaching is good, biblically sound, where the verses in the bible speak for themselves. There's no need to be doing drama to make it any better. God's word is alive and doesn't need any theatrics.

    4. I could make a list… One that I heard a lot of was...

      "I'm preaching a lot better than you are amening".

    5. "Is that all you'v got!?"

    6. AL - that type of arrogance is astounding. I love me, much?

  4. Sorry you put yourself through that Julie Anne. Now you see why I had trouble sitting on the front row!

    1. I just hope you had a towel :) No, don't feel sorry for me, Paul. I had a choice to turn him off and I didn't lose my marriage. You lost much from your experience. Thank you for being bold and sharing your story. I am still praying for you and encourage my readers to keep praying for you as well. There's an emotional price to pay for what you are going through. Stay grounded, Paul!

  5. When I went to the website link you give at the end of your blog entry, I was appalled to read a reference to the "alleged women who were involved." Fortunately whoever is putting together that page has the sense to refuse to name the women; however, it does not make sense to me why these women are not considered victims of clergy sexual abuse. Why would anyone name them, as the link says another site does?

    Using "alleged women who were involved" also implies they were equal partners in the relationship. If we can acknowledge that those sitting in the pews are victims of clergy spiritual abuse, why is it difficult to acknowledge that those involved women are victims of clergy sexual abuse? In some states, it's illegal, just as it is with therapists, for good reason. Sex for some reason means the women were capable of cooperating? The abuse to them involves not only that of the spirit but that of the body. When you are in a power relationship, saying no becomes incredibly difficult, if not impossible, much like leaving the church becomes impossible for other members even though they know things are wrong.

    There are many websites, centers, and therapists out there devoted to clergy sexual abuse. If you are a victim of such abuse, or care about someone who is, seek help. There's a good book on the subject, "Is Nothing Sacred?" by Marie Fortune.

    1. Jackie, the article is a collaborative effort, one in which I am personally involved. That is my website and it has been around for many years now.

      Allow me to address your comments about the women. I just added the brief comment, I think late yesterday, because I wanted to make it perfectly clear to any readers that the article was not going to be a trashy one. When I have done in depth articles in the past, I have tried hard to present them in a proper manner. The last in depth one was the Mark Fogarty case. I am trying to do the same with this one on Young. The wording is not at all meant to place blame on the women - or to take any possible blame away. Women were allegedly involved in some way with the pastor. That is all it means. Whether they were manipulated, taken advantage of and wooed from their youth as is felt by some, or if any had no church affiliation there---we simply do not yet know details.

      The article is still in its initial stages and as such, we haven't yet touched on a number of possible aspects, of which your thoughts would be one. Because not enough is known of Edwin's alleged "misconduct" with women, I am not prepared at this time to say much on it. It is disputed whether all those named elsewhere were rightfully named. As such, I have no details as to the alleged accounts. There are a number out there who are blaming the woman, while others, such as yourself, rightly see how at least some may have been victims of clergy sexual abuse. On my site, we simply have not gotten into this area yet because not enough is out in the open. I have seen claims of a dozen or more, but nothing is open as to when anything started, how it started, how old everyone was, whether it was one time events, and so forth.

      If you would like to suggest a different wording, that would not get into the victim aspect, please feel free to suggest it.

      Why would anyone name them? There's many, many angry people out there. The whole situation runs very deep. There are former members who are angry and have had their scars of past hurts ripped open. Some of these were falsely labeled as fornicators or homosexuals by the ex-pastor. Now, here he is, being accused of sleeping with multiple women and his son was arrested on sexual charges of a homosexual nature and with what appears to be minors.

      There are also current members who had a quick chance to get out there for a little in between pastors. They are so loaded down with rules and restrictions. Some of them have been hurt, too. There are outside family members who are hurting, too.
      (Imagine what Jordan's wife and her parents and other family members are dealing with...) Since the pastor encouraged tattling on those who broke the rules, and since he went after those who were reported unless they happened to be a favorite of his, there is a huge heap of feelings, resentments, anger and even revenge out there.

      So.....the situation is complex and volatile in ways. I have no doubt some named names, whether they knew it was true or not, because they were angry and getting in paybacks.

      It's not easy to explain, Jackie. This is a feeble attempt to do so very briefly.

    2. Thank you for sharing so much. Because there is no header on the website, it appeared to be a one-time only thing. I now see there are links at the bottom.

      A concern is that the women in the situation may see your information and it would be an opportunity for them to understand it as different than an affair. And get help. If there were several women involved, it's a good guess many are from the church. That's clergy sexual abuse if they are. Even if a woman from the church went into it willingly, that doesn't mean it's not clergy sexual abuse. I've read the rules you shared and there's no way a woman in that church would see him as something other than God's right hand. If they did, they wouldn't be in that church.

      Women survivors of clergy sexual abuse don't seek help, just like many church members who sat in the pews watching and often participating in the psychological abuse never will. There's shame, embarrassment, and often an acceptance of most of the blame - "He said I wanted it." A minister like that feeds the women all kinds of lines - just like a pedophile grooms a child. It's done often in steps and they are very good at it.

      It sounds like clergy sexual abuse is a big part of this story. And it still abuse even if they are over 18 and even if it was only once, as long as they attended that church or were connected with it in some way.

      This is an applicable blog entry by Marie Fortune on her website:

    3. There were problems putting the banner from the main page everywhere, so I removed it some time ago from a number of the pages and didn't add it to new ones. But the bottom of each page always has links. It needs a huge overhaul and has for some time....

      I don't disagree that the clergy sexual abuse will be a big part of the story.

      Jackie, since right now I don't have time to do an article on that issue (I am trying to get up more video), would you be interested in writing something for me to post? I don't dictate how people are to write articles, so you will have lots of leeway if you want to do it. It just will take me awhile to get to it myself.

      If anyone else feels there is an issue revolving around this that you would like to address, feel free to submit an article. It has to be properly done- no nastiness. You can see how I have handled it so far- that is the tone I wish to keep.

    4. I was. A previous backslider and came bak bcus I wanted to be saved and love God I and my spouse still attending but with unasure minds in what to do were tryn to remain. Faithful unto God but in our minds we have to be come unsaved to become saved we been hearing so much if u leave. Then ur. A backslider and that's far. From the truth. Don't have anything to. Do. With. God its fear and. Rejection and mind torment if we. Just go and move on were backsliders in the eyes of the. Church. What do we do I love God but where do. We stand in salvation oh so much confusion. We both. I. And. My spouse are very. Happy pastor bro dudley has come and we do feel. A newness of Gods spirit but we. Struggle still with. Fear and rejection because all. We. Ever recived from. Is. That. We been put. Aside with. Just. A few. In. Number. To. Befriend. Our hearts. Are. With. God. But in. Same. Stress were so confused. Where do. We. Go. Whom. Do. We. Trust. And. Believe for our. Salvation will. we still. Be under. The. Bashing. The fear and mistreatment from. Another. What. Are. The chances. We take. Can. We be promised that. We. Will overcome. And make heaven. If. We remain in ftab ? So. Many unansnwered. Doubts and concern we jus can't take. The first. Door out God said where one. Door is closed anothr. Is opened lord God. We jus don't know I don't wana. Be affliated amoung the named of abusers we. Don't know of anything that went on but we did sit in constant fear and. Hurt. Rejected. By. Many never feeln. Love we remained. Only because. Of. God and hhis church not mans his church. Yes many of us carry. Different aspects of hurt ours was mental mind and I have carried. Sickness becus of all. The stress of fear and angiush. Please some one be in touch with the almighty God. Help. Us for we can't. Think on our own. To much. What. Is right what is wrong?for. Us personally will. We be a backslider in heavens. Eye or is that another aspect. Of miliption sorryy. Can't spell. That one but u know what. I'm. Sayn. So. Many. Like us carry. This dease of distraught dismayed and the more thanku for reading what's on our hearts please just love us all. Whom are concerned in this mess our lifes stand in the balance of eternity ! Time is short and time is of the essance of salvavtion let every man be a lie and God be true but how do distinquish the truth from. Another lie?

    5. Hi Anonymous - - I had a bit of difficulty reading your comment because of the extra periods, but tried to make sense of what you are saying. What I did pick up was a lot of pain and struggle - and spiritual confusion. That breaks my heart. If you are still at a place where you are left torn up inside with spiritual confusion, please leave. Go find another church. Is there someone safe you can talk to about this?

      My heart goes out to you. I will be praying for you!

    6. Anonymous, I sat on FT's pews, too. I know where you're coming from. When I left I was physically sick because of some things that happened. And I was afraid. Very afraid. And lonely. It's lonely leaving, but lonely staying too... never knowing who will report you or when you're "gonna get it". Getting shunned because someone said you did something, whether it was true or not. Gossip and lots of disrespect.

      Where was love? God is love. (1Jn 4:7-8) We should love each other. We should do to others as we would have them do to us. We should love our neighbors as ourselves. Where was love? In the line after church?

      God is much bigger than the four walls of that church. You can leave the church without leaving God, just as people have left God without leaving the church. Not to say you have to stay or leave, just that there's more to it than they ever told.

      There are many praying for you.

    7. Beautiful comment, throughgracealone! Thank you!

    8. Jackie- I reworded that section. See if you don't like it better.

    9. Thank you. I think that's enough for now to make the point.

  6. Couldn't bring myself to listen to the second one, the first was bad enough. What I always want to ask these misogynistic bullies is, do you kiss your wife with that mouth? Do you stand up and spew hate and derision at the entire female gender, and then go home and try and be lovey-dovey with your wife? You can't have such vitriol towards women in general and then be a nice loving husband, it just won't work. That hate would spill over into his personal relationships.

    1. Part two of the attacking rant is worse than part one (not yet posted) as the entire clip is his ranting and raving and getting the people to whoop and holler with him.

      The one you didn't listen to, is milder that the one you did. Imagine being subject to that week after week, month after month, year after year....

    2. Oh my, Lois, I'm going to have to emotionally prepare myself. I'm not ready yet. I can only handle so much ranting from these types.

    3. Julie Anne, I am very, very tired of listening to this man. And many considered this stuff to be anointed preaching. Sigh....

      Posted some other clips today and will be adding more today. These are not on the line of the attacking ones.

  7. Jullie Anne

    You write - August 16, 2012 1:12 PM...

    "...the longer you stay someplace, your creepo meter loses it's effectiveness."

    That sound you just heard was me falling on the floor - laughing...

    And - crying - at the same time... :-(

    Your statement is all to true.

    That is won wonderful, winsome, witty, winning way, to describe
    "The Abusive Religious System" of Today - And - How it operates -
    And how these controlling sayings and - Teaching Tactics Take Their Toll in Time...
    And dulls our senses - And destroys our “Creepo Meter.”

    Maybe you can trademark “Creepo Meter?” And devise a way to list all those
    “Creepy things” done, and said, “Can anyone say amen?” by “Pastors who Abuse?”

    Yes - I can’t wait to be able to use this statement. Was wondering...

    Is “plagerism” a sin in the Bible - :-)

    Or can I just steal that saying from you?

    1. Have at it, Amos. I have discovered that I am creating my own spiritual abuse lingo on my blog: Creepo meter, Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS), etc. I'll have to put these words on the definitions in the "Spiritual Abuse Help" area. :) Creepy is the word of choice because it was in the defamation lawsuit and later voluntarily dismissed - hahaha.

      We should always have our creepo meter engaged! I'm teaching my kids to have theirs engaged wherever they go.

  8. Just wanna say - I really appreciate your stand against such authorities and the gumption you have to expose it. I think it's absolutely noble and I am glad you won your case...much deserved!

    I enjoy the site! Keep up the great writing!

    1. Thanks so much for stopping by and for the kind note. I just checked out your blog. I'll have to check in from time to time :)

      PS - I love the word gumption. I must use it more often!

  9. heifers and a dumb ox, huh?

    i have yet to read the comments, but this Ed Young character is an exceptionally sick man!

    so this is Apostolic, huh?

    . .

    ja, you hit upon one my go-to verses—Prov 16:25, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the ways of death.

    i’m also comforted by the assurance of Scripture that says “the abominable proud-hearted one will not go unpunished.”

    Praise the LORD!

  10. Look peoples if you want to go then go nobody is holding a gun to anybody head,its matter of choice and free will, Jesus told the aposatle the samething when the preaching got hard, he call the scibs and the pharisees serpents devils hypocrites etc... would you call Jesus Preaching hate preaching. Look i don't condon what happen at ft edwin young was a devil in sheep clothing but God Remove his mask and reveal who he realy was. nobody talks about the priests in the cathlic churches how they was mosleting young boys, the bible teaches us that there are ungodly men who crept in the church (Edwin young) read Jude4. Yes people do get down when leader fall in sin, look at hollywood there in adultred everyday, but people still spin there money at the movies to go see them. the bottem line is this God is going to have a church, if people want to attend ft they can if they don't then go somewhere else you can not be save without a preacher in your life. P.s faith tabernacle is going to have about 500.people in sevices this sunday i garantee it come see for yourself. sorry for any mispelling but got the messaged

    1. Thanks for your comment, Anonymous, but I'm not so sure about your statement, "you can not be save without a preacher in your life". Where did that come from? Is that something you heard at church? I haven't read it in the Bible.

    2. No, nobody is holding a gun to your head. Just your salvation. What "choice" is it when one is told their church has "the truth" and if you leave, you have left God? Or will die because you left? Or will become a drug addict, prostitute, homosexual, etc. if you leave? And even if you don't become any of those, it will be told to others that you did?

      Learn to rightly divide the Bible and not just throw out what you have heard for years. Jesus preached hard against the religious leaders who were rejecting him and wanted him gone. They were the ones who should have been proclaiming his coming and following him. They were the blind leading the blind. Jesus did not talk like that to the others. So for Young and others like him to be doing so, exhibiting the works of the flesh and not the fruit of the Spirit, is pitiful. That's not preaching. That is not being under the anointing of God. That is not speaking the truth in love. That is not having the heart of a servant. That is building a kingdom for ones self and not caring who you trample over or destroy in the process.

      Stop the worshiping of preachers. Preachers do not save you, nor do they keep you saved. Preachers have no control over your salvation. You have been taught to take one little Bible passage and make a doctrine of it that is not supported by the whole of the Bible.

      God already has a church. It isn't a building. It isn't an organization. It consists of those who believe in and follow Him.

  11. I don't want to. Whatcha gonna do now?

  12. Keep up the good work Julie. I left the church back in the late 80's. I lost my family and friends over my choice of attending Faith Tab. They made me feel like I was someone special and every Thanksgiving the married folks would invite the single brothers over for dinner. Oh they were so nice until I started missing church services. I'm glad to be away from the church now. The only thing is the experience has left me alone in this world. I do not trust anybody and am a loner. I tried to end my life 12 years ago and after the attempt no one would hire a crazy person that tried to kill them self. I'm on disability now and don't have to take any meds as long as I'm not around any drama. Anyhow enough about me. I still know some folks from Faith Tab and hope they can find a way to get away from the cult. I do not believe you have to be in a church to live for God. He knows your heart.
    Stay safe and stay strong!

    1. E. Thompson - I'm so glad you did not end your life. You obviously have an amazing story to share and they wouldn't have heard it if you were gone. Please stick around. I'd like to hear more from you!

  13. While I'm sad at what happened, I also feel a sense of validation, as what prompted my dad's own issues with Westberg years ago was that Westberg was counseling women alone in his office. Someone told my dad this, and my dad talked about it with one of his "close" friends. This friend went straight to Westberg, who ended up calling my dad before the Kansas board and even flew people in and had them lined up outside the door to contradict my dad (who wasn't even making an accusation, he had only discussed it with a "friend" because he wasn't sure what to do with the information.

    1. I can see how you might feel a sense of validation. It sounds like you and your family has gone through a lot.

    2. Hi Julie Anne, thanks, it was many years ago when I was a kid, but I tried to open up about it on a discussion forum a few years back and was pretty much shut down and called a liar (although there were a few people trying to defend and support me, including Lois)... which was pretty emotional and painful for me at the time, because I had blocked it all out for years and then when I finally let it all out, I felt attacked. I'm all good though, didn't mean to sidetrack your blog comments!

    3. Brad - You're not sidetracking at all. In fact, you're perfectly on the right subject. Did you get to a place where you finally did get support,? How are you doing now? This stuff is such a process - first for us - getting to the reality of what actually happened and admitting it, and then attempting to move on.

  14. BRAD!!! Email me. Please. I'd thought about getting ah old of you.

    1. Hi Lois! Sure thing, will send you one now.

    2. Brad, how wise and brave your father was. A man ahead of his time.

    3. Thanks Jackie, he's still around and pastoring the UPC church in Navaosta, TX.
      Lois-sent an e-mail to "comments@", I have forgotten which e-mail address you use.

  15. JA-
    Great blog post. I’ve had a little experience with Pentecostal churches and have visited one Apostolic church in my own home town. They seem to think God has gone deaf. They all have to shout at the top of their lungs. My hearing was good at the time and I almost needed earplugs.

    I listened to the first audio clip. I tried to listen the second and had to stop. I get overwhelmed by those preachers who think they have to YELL at people. I can’t stand them and my ‘creepo meter’ goes off whenever I hear one of them!

    I doubt any one of them have ever attended seminary and I wonder if they even have enough intelligence to make it through a Bible college. A little training is a good thing, IMHO. I realize not all pastors are going to have a PHD. Also, a little civility would go a long way.

    Those kind of pastors are a dime a dozen and there are probably more out there than we will ever know.
    If I ever step foot in a church where I hear anything like that I will get up and leave as quickly as possible.

    1. Although I do not care for preaching style like this, some people have different preferences. Your sentence about civility rang true for me. The important thing to look at is the fruit in someone's life. A pastor who is not civil? What's that?! That's a problem.

    2. My ears have been ringing since I quit trying to pray through for the Holy Ghost back in the 80's. Guess 6 months of people yelling in your ears the whole time your praying done that.

      Hey Julie, I'll be sticking around. I have your blog bookmarked.

    3. A thought for those having trouble listening: On the three "attack" videos, the entire rant by the pastor has been painstakingly transcribed for you. So you can turn the volume off and read. Other parts have not been transcribed, but those have.

    4. I'm sure that was painstaking, Lois :) Glad it was you and not me. You deserve an extra scoop of ice cream for that.

      E. Thompson: I'm glad to hear it!

    5. Dog lies down, puts head on paws... JA - good comment @ 8:06 PM

      People have their right to any kind of worship style they prefer.

      I just don't need to be yelled at or scolded like a little kid by a pastor behind his pulpit.

    6. Same here, Sheep-Dog. That preaching style sets off triggers for me that turn me off immediately.

      Here's the thing - why is there the need to hype up the Word of God? Can the Word of God not speak for itself? What does the Bible say about the Word of God - it's living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword - - - - and pastors think they can improve on THAT? OY - that's some pride.

    7. I am waiting for my ice cream, Julie Anne! ;)

      I had my first minister comment to two of the videos, attempting to put fear in me for doing them. Even trying to say I know nothing of the situation with the woman being ripped into during the video.

      No mention of the pastor being wrong, harsh, unloving, ridiculous. But he fears for me. I replied, in part, that there will be no she bears coming after me.

      More videos have been uploaded. Of interest is the one where he goes off about leaving your pastor alone, not speaking of the pastor unless it is something good, obey your pastor because he rules....

    8. I loved Bishop L.E. Westberg. And I am sickened and sad over Br. Edwin Youngs fall. My prayers are with Elder Dudley, the new Pastor at Faith Tab. Of course, my prayers are with the good saints and family that have to live with this. Br E. Young has a soul and it's not Gods will that any should perish. Bishop Westberg was baptized in Jesus name in my home church in Buchanan MI. 1952 I believe. He is and was a hero of the faith.

  16. How do you know your being spiritually abused?

    1. That's a great question!

      I have put this definition in the Spiritual Abuse Help page. Bob Kellerman came up with it and it's good:

      Spiritual abuse is a spiritual role-reversal where a shepherd, instead of clinging to and emulating the Great Shepherd by shepherding God’s people (Acts 20; 1 Peter 5; 1 Timothy 3; Ephesians 4), subtly demands that members exist to meet the shepherd’s needs (James 4:1-4). Rather than relating as a servant leader, the pastor “pulls rank” and “lords it over others” (Matthew 20:20-28; 1 Peter 5:1-6), not for the benefit of the flock, but for the benefit of the pastor. Rather than speaking the truth in love and rather than ministering grace and truth (Ephesians 4:11-16, 29; Colossians 4:3-6; Titus 2:10-12), the spiritually abusive pastor intimidates, judges, condemns, shames, and blames the sheep without regard for the spiritual wellbeing of the sheep (Jeremiah 23:1-4; Matthew 23:1-39). Definition from Bob Kellemen,

    2. well that looks familiar! i recognize a number of individuals who fall into that pack.

      good concise definition. you would think everyone could discern spiritual abuse by these measures. However, consider, not everyone discerns as clearly as others. those who haven't been exposed to much grace or truth don't always recognize grace and truth. they may intuitively know that something is not right, yet they may not discern the un-right-ness to be spiritual abuse and biblical error.

  17. Julie Ann you my friend are the character do you have anything else on your hands than to sit back and bad mouth a man for preaching it straight and true! Maybe you should have listen to him and shut you motor mouth! The bible is true Why don't you put what he is saying in perspective instead of blowing it out of the water! Rediculous!

    1. Thanks for stopping by. I have to ask just a few words to you, though: where is the evident fruit in this man's life?

  18. Hi Julie,

    Appreciate the insight here. I have a question for you, as well as anyone else reading, as I am curious (speaking as a man also tired of apostolic political hegemony).

    I have personally come to the conclusion that the Acts 2:38 Gospel IS what I believe. I will believe this part even if every last preacher with a bully pulpit goes down into fiery, adulterous oblivion.

    I'd like to know how many people have associated this doctrine itself with these clowns, and have dismissed it as well.

    In other words: does anyone here that HAS left retain the core belief?

    Thank you for your time,


  19. I believe in the act 2:38 message. I belive th word and that you do have to have a peacher to b saved. Julie go find a home church and stop criticizing. Keep your comments to your self.

    1. That's going to be hard for me to keep comments to myself when I have my own blog :)

      So please tell me, anonymous - - - - where is this verse in the bible that says we need a preacher to be saved? Are you saying that someone can't read the Bible and be saved on their own?

  20. 1 Corinthians 1:20-23
    (20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
    (21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?................ and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

  21. I posted the comment above as well as this one.

    Do you have a better method than God's method for saving souls?

    "it PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that BELIEVE"

    Here is another example of a PREACHER leading someone to Jesus.
    Acts 8:29-31
    (29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
    (30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
    (31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

    How about Acts chapter 2? Did not Jesus himself ordain Peter (a man and a preacher)? Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church....the church was built on a preacher, preaching is what brought the church into existence, and preaching will sustain the church of the Living God!

    After Peter PREACHED, those that HEARD were pricked in their hearts, and said "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" An ANNOINTED PREACHER said,

    Acts 2:38-41
    (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    (41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    1. Preacher

      Can you answer the question Julie Anne asked?

      "Are you saying that someone can't read the Bible and be saved on their own?"

      And here's another question.

      Who can be a preacher?

    2. It doesn't matter what I "think" or "say". What is important is what the Bible says. Otherwise, all we will ever have is conflicting ideas and statements. Rom 3:3-4

      Are you asking if someone can receive the initial experience of salvation on their own? Are you asking if someone can maintain salvation, maintain separation from the world, and experience ALL that God intended for the church without a preacher?

      Without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Heb 11:6

      How does faith come?

      Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:16-17 (see my first post for the previous verses)

      Who can be a preacher? Let me ask you, what does the Bible say?

    3. Preacher: I was wondering if you are really a preacher or just using that name? If you are a preacher, are you a UPC preacher?

  22. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 27, 2012 at 4:23 AM

    In the context, "preacher" does not necessarily mean one who stands up and speaks in public or from behind a pulpit, and definitely does not imply one who rules over a local congregation. Rather, it is one who proclaims the good news to one or more who are in need of it. All Christians are to be priests, reconciling those in need of the good news with the God of the good news. So all Christians are to be "preachers" in that sense of sharing good news with those in need of it. Any idea that this means what our current image of a preacher is, is fallacy.

    1. I would love to see your Bible Study to back up your comments. The Bible I have shows that God ALWAYS provided LEADERSHIP and AUTHORITY to His people in the form of a man. Of course there were always anti-authority movements. There will always be doubters and naysayers, they will try to change the truth of God into a lie. Read Romans chapter 1.

      Who did Jesus tell John to write letters to at the 7 churches in Rev chapter 1? Unto the "angel" of each church. (angel - G0032 aggelos, directly translates to messenger, minister, pastor).

      Were there problems in those churches? Absolutely!
      Was God still interested in those churches? Absolutely!

      How did He speak to them? Through a man. Through the ministry.

      This is as common of a theme in the Bible as prayer and sacrifice.

      No, I am not a UPC preacher. I am a Bible preacher.

      I do not belong to any man-made organizations or fellowships.

      I belong to God, and I am in His glorious church.

    2. Preacher

      You write...
      “God ALWAYS provided LEADERSHIP and AUTHORITY to His people in the form of a man”

      Well - ALWAYS??? - How about - In the Old Testament...

      1 - Miram - A Prophetess - One of three leaders of “His People” - Out of Egypt?

      Mic 6:4 KJV
      For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt,
      and redeemed thee out of the house of servants;
      and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and *Miriam.*

      2 - Huldah - A Prophetess - Provides leadership for “king Josiah” - With a Word from God
      When “king Josiah” doesn’t know what to do.

      2nd Kings 22:1-17 KJV
      14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah,
      went unto Huldah the prophetess... (The king sends 5 men to inquire of one women)
      15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,
      Tell the man that sent you to me, Thus saith the LORD...

      3 - Deborah - A Prophetess - Judged, Goverened, Led, Isreal.

      Judges 4:1-21 NIV
      4 - Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was “leading Israel” at that time.


      Then again - You might mean “ALWAYS” in the new testament- Only. ;-)

      4 - BUT - In the NT - Seems Jesus has a unique take on “Leaders” - “ONE” - Jesus.

      Because - In the NT - Jesus tells His Disciples - In Mat 23:10 NASB...
      NOT to be called “Leader” For you have “ONE” “Leader” - the Christ.

      And Glory - NOT one of His Disciples called themselves - “Leader.”
      And - NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple - “Leader.”
      ALL of His Disciples called themselves - “Servants.” - Wow - Go figure...

      5 - AND - In the NT - Seems Jesus has a unique take on “AUTHORITY.”
      Jesus tells His Disciples to NOT “Exercise AUTHORITY.” BUT be a “Servant.”

      In Mark 10:42-43 NIV, Jesus tells His Disciples...
      “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles
      lord it over them, and their high officials *Exercise AUTHORITY* over them.
      43 “NOT so with you.” Instead, whoever wants to become great among you
      *must be your servant.*

      That “Servant” thingy sure gets in the way of all this Leadership and Authority.

      Yea - That Bible sure has a lot of strange things to say. Well, straange to mere humans.

    3. A. Amos Love,

      Perhaps you would like to explain to us what the Apostle meant here:

      1 Corinthians 14:32-35
      (32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
      (33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
      (34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
      (35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

      Of course this doesn't fit with your agenda of trying to prove ME wrong. How about seeing what the BIBLE says? Can you describe to us the office of a prophet? A prophetess? Who are they accountable to? Were they the LEADERS of their time? Or were they a vessel God could speak through? Was Balaam's donkey a leader? :)

      Can a lady hold the office of a Bishop? (According to the Bible)


      Matt 23:10 Awesome scripture! Of course we cannot ever allow ANY glory to come to us as ministers of the Gospel! GOD gets the GLORY! Jesus was the prime example of the SERVANT LEADER.

      Read the rest (KJV)
      Matthew 23:10-12
      (10) Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
      (11) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
      (12) And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

      He that is "greatest" among you. He that shall humble himself shall be ....wait for it..."exalted".

      You can't paint all leaders and great people with the same brush! There are some truly great leaders among us today. Do they exalt themselves? NO! Does God exalt them because of their humility and pure spirit? YES!

      To be a great leader, you must have the attitude of a servant, or you will simply build resentment.

      Mar_13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave "authority" to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

      Luk_9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

      1Ti_2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. :-)

      Tit_2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

      Apostle Paul: Was he a leader?

      1 Corinthians 11:1-2
      (1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
      (2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

  23. 56 years a Baptist

    Much agreement when yoiu say...
    “So all Christians are to be "preachers" in that sense of sharing good news with those in need of it. Any idea that this means what our current image of a preacher is, is fallacy.”

    In the NT there are few Greek words for “preach.”
    IMO - They are similar in meaning.
    Publish - Proclaim - Preach the Gospel - bring good tidings - declare glad tidings.

  24. Preacher

    Didn’t John the Baptist do his “Preaching” in the wilderness?

    And - Didn’t Jesus, do the bulk of His “Preaching” in the streets?

    But - When Jesus “Preached” “truth” in the synagogue (Congregation, Assembly)
    And healed the sick - The “Religious Leaders Cabol” were a little upset with Him.

    Then Jesus told “His Disciples” “To Go” “Preach” “Heal the sick.” Like He did.

    Luke 9:2
    And he sent them “to preach” the kingdom of God, and “to heal the sick.”

    And - His Disciples - Did - What Jesus asked them to.

    Luke 9:6
    And they departed, and went through the towns,
    “preaching the gospel,” and “healing every where.”

    Seems preaching, healing, signs and wonders, miracles, go hand in hand. Yes?
    And - The signs “confirmed the word” preached. Yes?

    Mrrk 16:20
    And they went forth, and “preached” every where, the Lord working with them,
    and “confirming the word” with “signs (miracles) following.”

    And Paul, was Not interested in man’s wisdom???
    But in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.

    1Cor 2:4 KJV
    And my speech and my “preaching” was not with enticing words of “man’s wisdom,”
    but *in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:*
    That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men,
    but in *the power of God.*


    Preacher - Was wondering...

    Is this the “Precahing” you’re speaking about?

    In the wilderness - In the Streets - In the Assembly and being asked to leave?
    And having that “Preaching” confirmed with signs (miracles) and wonders following?

  25. There are 5 distinct facets of ministry:

    Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    What was Jesus' Purpose?

    Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    Where there any established New Testament churches during the ministry of Jesus? Of course not. Was there a great need for pastors? Of course not. Churches were not yet formed, the Comforter had not yet come. The Holy Ghost had not been poured out. There were no saints. Followers, yes. Saints, no.

    You asked, "Is this the “Preaching” you’re speaking about?"

    Absolutely! We are active in our community; witnessing, teaching Bible studies, reaching out to those who are hurting, praying for those in need! Taking the Good News of the Gospel EVERYWHERE we go!

    However, this does not take away from the duty of the Pastor. We have established churches that need the ministry of a Pastor! For the perfecting of the saints, for the edifying of the body!

    Yes! We are being blessed with miracles! Not just in the past, but right now!

    To God be the Glory!

    1. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 27, 2012 at 1:01 PM

      But, in NT times, those called "prophet" were doing the "preaching", not those called pastors. And all were servants, not rulers or leaders. And the letters were addressed to the "angels", because they were messengers, which is the real meaning of "angel". But nothing indicates they were in charge of anything.

      We have the hierarchy messed up. Christ at the top, all Christians in that place next, below them the deacons and other servants, and as servant of all, the pastor. That should be the authority/power arrangement in the church of Jesus Christ on earth.

    2. 56 years a Baptist,

      Absolutely Erroneous Doctrine:

      Have you ever read the letters that the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy and Titus?

      Your upside-down hierarchy has never worked, and will never work because it's in direct opposition to the Word of God.

      1 Timothy 1:1-3 CHARGE some that they teach no other docrine!

      1 Timothy 4:11
      (11) These things command and teach. (WHOA! That's not popular around here is it?)

      1 Timothy 4:12-13
      (12) Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
      (13) Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

      (WAS TIMOTHY PREACHING? Couldn't be.... )

      2 Timothy 2:1-2
      (1) Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
      (2) And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

      (Commit to who? FAITHFUL men. Surely Timothy couldn't be the judge of that!)

      1 Timothy 1:18-20
      (18) This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
      (19) Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
      (20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

      (A MAN did this? Wait a minute! Hymenaeus and Alexander should have been able to tell Paul what to do! Right? Paul was the servant!) Hmmmm.

      Read my other posts above, to get some good scripture for how GOD designed His government!

    3. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 27, 2012 at 5:35 PM

      Further, you seem to act as if I am unfamiliar with the Bible. But I am not, and I am familiar with all of the above, and with the best translations from the oldest Greek manuscripts, not the politically driven KJV which was translated from the Latin Vulgate and is expressly over-hierarchical due to the mandate from the KJ of the KJV, and overly masculinist due to his issues with female pretenders to the throne. If there is any bad translation of the bible in English, it is the KJV and it terribly misleads many people into heresy.

  26. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM

    But you have to take Jesus' words as primary. To be a 21st century pastor is to be a leader which Jesus said not to do.

    The very best church I have been in was an absolute democracy of the laity with pastoral staff submitting themselves to the laity. The church was governed in a monthly business meeting, with committees appointed by the congregation bringing reports and recommendations directly to the monthly business meeting. Deacons were in ministry not business leadership of the church. Pastors rarely commented on a matter unless directly asked and then usually demurred. It was a most pleasant, involved, warm, friendly congregation. So you made a false statement -- it can and does work, and it is a biblical model with all as priests for each other and the community.

    It was also in the top 5 in the state in the denomination in both per capita and total missions giving, and the only such congregation.

    1. Jesus did not say "Do not BE a leader". Don't twist His words to fit your agenda! He taught HUMILITY to leaders! Don't miss the principle here.

      In the church you mentioned above, did the presence of God ever take over during a service? Was there ever an outpouring of the Spirit? Were the Gifts of the Spirit in operation? Did God speak through tongues and prophesy? Were souls receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues? Was God performing miracles?

      Was there ever a time when the congregation didn't like what the preacher preached? Who backed up?

      Could the preacher preach what God led him to preach? Or, did he have to worry about making somebody mad?

      Where they heaping to themselves teachers, having itching ears? Or, was TRUTH being proclaimed?

      2 Timothy 4:1-4
      (1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
      (2) PREACH the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all longsuffering and doctrine.

      (I suppose this is a bad translation as well?)

      (3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      (4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

      The BEST church you've been in was described as, "a most pleasant, involved, warm, friendly congregation."

      That tells exactly what you are looking for in a church.

      But were they Godly people? Were they Holy people? Were they spiritual people? Were they Praying people? Were they obedient people? Were they separated from the world?

      I stand by my original statement. Your model church is a model of man-made ideas. No Biblical foundation, and it will not stand. It may EXIST, but not every church is GOD'S church!


    2. 56 years,

      I would like to read your commentary on the scriptures that I have already posted.

    3. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 28, 2012 at 7:08 PM

      You lack the very humility you say that Jesus taught!!! You are so invested in being in leadership that you do not see the fallacy of your own arguments.

      The church I mentioned was full of Godly people, giving people, mission minded people, people who prayed, people who worked to serve the least in the community, and who witnessed to Jesus Christ on a daily basis. No, they were not separated from the world, but were in the world witnessing to the saving power of faith in Jesus Christ. Tutoring children, teaching English to refugees, serving those in need.

      And not so puffed up about their status as you seem to be.

      The Bible is true, at least it was in the original which we do not have any more. But you have chosen the most corrupted translation on which to base your argument. That is ignorant!

    4. I knew this would turn personal when you could no longer defend your position from a Biblical perspective. It usually happens that way. That's ok, I forgive you.

      I did notice that you chose not to answer several key questions in my last few posts. Rather than have this turn into an argument which would profit none, I will post nothing more for awhile.

      I assume from your demeanor that you'll need to have the last word. Feel free to call me whatever you like.

    5. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 29, 2012 at 3:53 AM

      I have other obligations than replying to your questions. I have a library of over 100 commentaries on the scripture, access to both Greek and Hebrew texts of the Bible, and study extensively the scripture. My remark about ignorance is a statement of a lack of knowledge on your part. I did not say you were of low intelligence. Using the KJV when we have the knowledge of its history and biases is ignorant.

      I will reply to your posting of scripture when I have time to pull out the Greek and review it and the errors in the translation you posted, prior to commenting. BTW, the word prophesy in the KJV means preach and it did not refer to a position but to an action. It is most likely that there is not a reference to a preacher but to proclamation, which is every Christian's responsibility.

  27. Preacher

    You ask - August 27, 2012 1:08 PM...
    “Apostle Paul: Was he a leader?”

    I don’t think so - Seems Paul wanted to be known as a “Servant.”
    At least that’s what Paul called himself - a couple of times.

    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ...
    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God...

    And I can find NO where in the Bible where Paul is called - “Leader.”
    Paul even called himself - your servant - for Jesus’ sake.

    2 Cor 4:5 For “we preach NOT ourselves,”
    but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves “your servants” for Jesus’ sake.

    Seems that’s what - Todays - so-called “Pastor/Leaders” do. - A lot.
    They “preach” about themselves, how important they are, a “Gift” from God.

    But Jesus said - “He who speaks of himself seeks his own Glory.” John 7:18.
    And Jesus said - “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:” John 8:54.

    Jesus, as man, made Himself of NO reputation. Humbled Himself.

    Phil 2:7-8, says Jesus, as man, made himself of “NO reputation,”
    and took upon him the form of a “Servant”... he humbled himself...

    There’s that “Servant” thingy again. ;-)

    Paul, also encouraged the rest of us believers - to be - “Led” by the Spirit...

    Rom 8:14
    For as many as are “led by the Spirit of God,” they are the sons of God.

    And - Jesus said, many times, in different ways - Follow me.
    Never once does Jesus say - to follow a man - “A Mere Fallible Human.”

    My Sheep - Hear My Voice - I know them - And they Follow Me. John 10:27.

    Why would anyone want - a man - A“Mere Fallible Human” - “Leader?”
    When “the Spirit of God” can be their - “Leader?”

    When you can “Hear His Voice” and follow Jesus?

    1. Twist it however you please. The Apostle Paul was a leader. You cannot evade that fact. Was he humble? Yes! (he called himself a servant) Did God exalt him to a position of authority? Yes! Would he have failed (fallen) if he tried to exalt himself? Yes!

      This is not a complicated issue, unless you are trying to prove a personal agenda. If you stick with the Word of God, you'll do fine.
      Interject your own bias and opinion, and you'll get off-track.

      Try to reverse engineer the Bible, and you'll get nowhere. God turns the wisdom of men into foolishness.

      (Why didn't you answer my questions in the above post?) :-)

  28. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC,

    Hey, I like to visit great churches. Where is the church you mentioned, and where is it?

  29. Preacher

    You ask - August 28, 2012 2:58 PM...
    "(Why didn't you answer my questions in the above post?)

    Well, it is a challenge answering ALL the questions. - There are lots of them. ;-)
    Can you be a little more specific?

    I have to admit - It’s a little discouraging - When I do respond to your statement
    or question - From the Bible -And I could be wrong - You seem to dismiss the answer.

    When you asked me - “Apostle Paul: Was he a leader?”

    And I answered with what I find - In the Bible - And NOT what I think - Because...

    When I asked - “Who can be a Preacher? - You answered - August 26, 2012 9:58 PM
    “It doesn't matter what I "think" or "say". What is important is what the Bible says.”

    And I agree with that statement - Pheewww - Well, At least we agree on something.

    But - And I could be wrong again - IMO - You answered with - What “you” think.
    And - NOT from what the Bible says.

    You answered with - August 28, 2012 2:58 PM...
    “Twist it however you please. The Apostle Paul was a leader.”

    I might have missed it - Can you show me - From the Bible (NOT what you think.)
    Where The Bible calls Paul a “Leader?” Or where a Disciple calls Paul a - “Leader?”

  30. Preacher

    You write to - 56 years a Baptist - August 28, 2012 3:32 PM...
    “Jesus did not say "Do not BE a leader". Don't twist His words to fit your agenda!
    He taught HUMILITY to leaders! **Don't miss the principle here.**”

    Seems - To me anyway - The principle in Mat 23:10 - is - There is “ONE” “Leader.”

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    And the rest of us believers are to be “Servants” of Jesus Christ - Obeying Him...

    IMO - Jesus taught HUMILITY to “Servants” and NOT  to “Leaders.”

    Because - NOT one of His Disciples - called themselves - “Leader.”
    And NOT one of His Disciples - Called another Disciple - “Leader.”
    Seems ALL of His Disciples called themselves - “Servants.” Go figure...

    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ...
    Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ...
    Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ...
    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God...
    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God...
    2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant...

    And I can find - In the Bible - “By love - “Serve” - One another.” Gal 5:13 KJV
    I can find - In the Bible - “Submit” - One to another. Eph 5:21 KJV. I Pet 5:5 KJV

    But - I can NOT find - In the Bible - “Lead” one another - “Follow” one another.
    I can NOT find - In the Bible - “Exercise Authority” - over - One another.

    Seems Jesus taught in Mat 23:8 - Ye are ALL Brethren - I like Jesus - a lot.
    And Paul taught in Gal 3:28 - In Christ - Ye are ALL “ONE” - I like Paul - a lot.

    Isa 3:12 KJV
    ...O my people, *they which lead thee* cause thee to err,
    and destroy the way of thy paths.

    Isa 9:16 KJV
    For *the leaders of this people* cause them to err;
    and *they that are led of them* are destroyed.

    1. Someone figured out how to do a search or the word "leader" in their Bible program!

      Too bad they didn't figure out how to get the right CONTEXT!

      The Bible DOES warn against bad leaders, but does NOT teach us that all leaders are bad.

      Nice try!

  31. No leadership? No authority? No accountability? Sounds like a doctrine of devils.....

  32. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 30, 2012 at 4:47 AM

    The leadership of the church is the Holy Spirit! If the people pray and seek the will of God, and all are trying to live and act in according to the perceived will of God in prayer, then the congregation will make decisions under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. And groups normally make better decisions than individuals. Where one can be turned aside by the devil, the majority will follow the leadership of God.

  33. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCAugust 30, 2012 at 4:52 AM

    The entirety of the church is accountable to God!!! When acting in prayer seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the laity (aka "people of God") are those to whom the pastor and other staff are accountable.

    All believers are priests and all are equal in the sight of God, who calls out some for more intense service. But when people believe they are called out to serve, the devil also takes a shot at them to convince them that everything that they do is the will of God and the effect is that they overstep the service to which they are called and become dictators in the church. No one is called of God to be a dictator in the church.

    1. I am sure the Southern Baptist movement is deeply appreciative of your membership and insight.

      If the Pastoral staff preaches something the congregation doesn't like or approve of, then what happens?

    2. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCSeptember 2, 2012 at 12:11 PM

      It is not a matter of liking or approving, it is a matter of whether it is true to the New Testament and to the teachings of Jesus. There is a lot of theology that is not Bible based and preachers can go off on tangents that are not supported by the Bible. If so, they need correction, and if they refuse correction, then the church must remove them and replace them. It has happened more than once.

      One of the reasons we have so many denominations is that pastors have disagreed with other pastors about the character and nature of God, the means of salvation, and how we are to go about serving God. If so many preachers disagree with each other, they can not all be correct!!! Since God is not the author of error, that means that a whole lot of preachers are in error, and the corrective is a congregation that prays and listens for the Holy Spririt and is willing to correct the errant pastor.

    3. Preacher: What should the response from the congregation be if a pastor preaches something that is contrary to Scripture? Is the congregation biblically obligated to submit/obey?

  34. Hi Sammy J

    Much agreement - When you say...
    “No leadership? No authority? No accountability? Sounds like a doctrine of devils.....”

    That’s why I thank God - Because...
    I have a “Leader.” - “Jesus” - my “ONE” - “Leader.” Mat 23:10 NASB.
    I love “Following Jesus” - Since - I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul.

    “Mere Fallible Humans” do NOT seem to lead very well. Isa 3:12 KJV. Isa 9:16 KJV.

    But Jesus says, in Mat 15:14 NKJV - Let them alone...
    They are blind leaders - of the blind. And if the blind - leads the blind,
    both will fall into a ditch.

    Jesus is the best - “Leader.” - Yes?

    And - I also thank God - because...
    Jesus gives “Power” and “Authority” to HIs Disciples over all devils. Luke 9:1 KJV

    Now - I really thank God - because...
    God is the only “ONE” I’m required to give account to. Rom 14:12 KJV.
    And the only “ONE” anyone has to give account to.

    And NO longer - Is anyone accountable to me - since I’m NO longer in Leadership.
    I’m NO longer a “Blind leader” - “Leading the Blind.”

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice - One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  35. Didn't Paul say Follow me as I follow Christ?

  36. Paco

    You ask...
    “Didn't Paul say Follow me as I follow Christ?”

    Well - kinda. - In 1 Cor 11:1 KJV - Paul writes...
    Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    But - It depends on which version you use. ;-)
    ASV - Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.
    BBE - So take me for your example, even as I take Christ for mine.
    NIV - Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
    NKJV - Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

    This word - Follower - in the Greek is Strongs #3402 - and means - “an imitator.”

    Imitator - Dictionary - a person who copies the behavior or actions of another.

    And Paul is imitating Christ - Which is what Jesus ask us to do - Follow Jesus.

    I do NOT see Paul calling himself a “Leader” here.
    Paul is calling himself a follower, an imitator, of Jesus Christ.

    Paul is giving us an example - He’s imitating Jesus - And we should do the same.

    Paul, also encourages the rest of us believers - to be - “Led” by the Spirit...

    Rom 8:14
    For as many as are “led by the Spirit of God,” they are the sons of God.

    And - Jesus said, many times, in different ways - Follow me.
    Never once does Jesus say - to follow a man - “A Mere Fallible Human.”

    My Sheep - Hear My Voice - I know them - And they Follow Me. John 10:27.

    Jesus, also said - You can’t serve two masters - Who do you want to “Serve?”

    Jesus - Who died for you? - Jesus - Who shed His Blood for you?

    Or do you want to “Serve” - A Master - Who is “A mere Fallible Human?



    Why would anyone want - a man - A“Mere Fallible Human” - as a - “Leader?”

    When “the Spirit of God” can be their - “Leader?”

    When you can “Hear His Voice” and “Follow Jesus?”

    1. Hey Paco,

      Just disregard the Bible, and listen to A. Amos Love. Let this person try to prove their point by using scriptures out of context.

      "no man can serve two masters". Really? Was the Bible talking about ministry here? Was Jesus talking about pastors here?

      Keep twisting it, A. Amos. You are promoting false doctrine.

  37. You people are crazy!! Just because you don't LIKE to SUBMIT and OBEY those who have the RULE Over you, doesn't mean that you can ignore that part of the scripture.

    Trying to pretend that the Apostles were not leaders is completely ludicrous!

    Have any of you even received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance?

    1. You most likely just hit the nail on the head.

      Keep the Faith!

  38. If we are all to just follow the Spirit, then there is no need for preachers right? No need for the Apostles to write letters to the churches. It's a shame they wasted their time, we should just eliminate the Bible altogether. It was written by men. In your erroneous doctrine they had no authority to write such things! The church members should have gathered together and voted on every issue. The churches should have written letters to Paul telling him how to act and behave! It's a shame the Bible got it all backwards!

    The real shame is that people may actually believe your man-made theology, because you twist and pervert the scripture to TRY to make it fit your agenda.

  39. Amen Preacher! Keep it REAL!

  40. Simply Saved

    Much agreement - When you say...
    ‘You people are crazy!!”

    Absolutely - I’m Crazy - For Jesus.- Thanks for noticing. ;-)

    And I would even admit to being...
    Very passionate about Jesus - Infatuated with Jesus - And - Devoted to - Jesus.

    And - FYI - You made a statement - That’s NOT quite correct - It needs a tweak...

    You write...
    “Just because you don't LIKE to SUBMIT and OBEY those who have the RULE Over you, doesn't mean that you can ignore that part of the scripture.”

    A slight correction - I NO longer - “LIKE to SUBMIT and OBEY” - those who...
    Say - they have “The Rule Over” you - But - “Ignore” some basic scriptures.

    Here are a few questions to ask - And verses to check...
    To see if “Pastors who Abuse” can “Qualify” to have “The Rule Over” anyone.

    1 - Are they living examples of - NOT “being lords over God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
    2 - Are they living examples of - lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
    3 - Are they living examples of - esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
    4 - Are they living examples of - submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    5 - Are they living examples of - prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
    6 - Are they living examples of - being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    7 - Are they living examples of - NOT “exercising authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43.

    These are qualities -and qualifications - that are very much lacking in...
    “Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority.”

    Does anyone have to...
    “SUBMIT and OBEY” - “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” -
    Who do NOT meet these basic “Qualifications?” Who do NOT “Qualify?”

    NOT anymore - Thank You Jesus

    When you believe the lie you start to die...

    1. Amos - Abusive pastors and those led astray like to use verses like Hebrews 13:17, but they miss the meaning of the word rule because it doesn't translate well. I did a post on this particular verse a while back because it is a common one for abusive pastors to use. Pastors who show humility are not going to lord this verse over their congregants. A better translation would be "persuade" instead of "rule". Check out this guy's great study of Hebrew's 13:17.

      And I love how you mention checking the fruit in the pastor's life to see if they are meeting the qualifications for church leaders. That is a great point that should be considered..

    2. Many here like to focus on the obligation of the ministry (and the ministry DOES have obligations), but don't forget that the verse says OBEY AND SUBMIT. I suppose that some of you would accuse Peter of "lacking humility".

    3. You seems to be suggesting that we obey and submit simply because of their "position". Hebrews 13:17 is yanked out of the chapter and waved for all the congregants to see: "Hey, I'm your authority and the Bible says you are to obey and submit because we watch out for your souls. "

      Why do those who yank that verse out not also mention these verses earlier in the chapter:

      7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

      8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

      9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

      This implies that we are supposed to be testing strange doctrines and the conduct of our pastors. We must use our critical thinking skills. If our pastors do not exhibit good conduct, do they have the right to rule over us and do we have the right to let them?

    4. I just noticed an error in my comment above where I said: A better translation would be "persuade" instead of "rule".

      Change the last "rule" to "obey". A better translation would be "persuade" instead of "obey".

  41. Simple Saved

    I think you were referring to Heb 13:17, when you wrote about “SUBMIT and OBEY.”

    Heb 13:17
    Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:
    “for they watch for your souls...”

    In my experience - With “Pastors who Abuse” and
    “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority” - I never met anyone -
    Who claimed to have “The Rule Over” me - Actually “watch for my soul.”

    BUT - They wanted me - Nay - indoctrinated, conditioned me to - Pay Pray and Obey.

    They said - They were watching for my soul - but...
    Seemed whenever there was a dis-agreement - My Soul - was no longer important.

    Jesus did say about the “Religious Leaders” of His day...
    Do as they say but NOT as they do - because they say and do NOT. Mat 23:3

    Seems to be a notable defect in “Pastors who Abuse.” Say one thing - do another.

    As you know - When Pastor/Leaders are challenged - disagreed with - and their
    Power - Profit- Prestige - Honor - Glory - Recognition - Reputation - is on the line...
    Things can get ugly pretty fast. Submitting one to another goes out the window.

    Seems the “Pastors who Abuse” and the “Pastors addicted to “Exercising Authority”
    Have a known defect - Check it out - What do you think? - Look familiar?

    NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder. (Narcissistic Pastor Disorder)

    1 - Has a grandiose sense of self-importance. Expects to be recognized as superior.
    2 - Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance...
    3 - Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by,
    .....or should associate with, other special or high status people (or institutions)
    4 - Requires excessive admiration
    5 - Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations,
    .....automatic compliance with his or her expectations.
    6 - Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e.,
    .....takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
    7 - Lacks empathy: unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
    8 - Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
    9 - Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

    Seems this defect - NPD - resides with many - Who have taken “Titles/Postions”
    NOT found in the Bible - Pastor/Reverend/Leader...

    What do you think? - Look familiar?
    Are these defects in any “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” - You know?

    Does anyone have to...
    “SUBMIT and OBEY” - “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” -
    Who do NOT “watch for your souls?”

    NOT anymore - Thank You Jesus

    Jesus love me this I know...

  42. You're right of course, there are those will will misuse and and abuse the office of ministry. However, that does not mean that God is flawed or that His plan is flawed.

    I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences in the past, but that does not remove your obligation to the Word of God.

    You DO have to Submit to and Obey those who DO watch for your souls. That is God's plan. You will not find another way in His Word.

    Jesus does love you, and He said if you love Him, Keep His commandments.

    1. Simply Saved said: You DO have to Submit to and Obey those who DO watch for your souls. That is God's plan. You will not find another way in His Word.

      How are you defining the words: submit and obey?

      Are you looking at the original Greek or taking today's common meaning?

    2. Simply Saved

      I appreciate your concern - Thanks - And agree - when you say...
      “I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences in the past, but that does not remove your obligation to the Word of God.”

      Yes - The benefit is - The Spiritual Abuse” drove me to Jesus.

      And Jesus is “the Word of God.” And The Bible is “the Word of God.”

      And as you depend on Jesus - The Doctrines of Men” begin to fall away.

      Jesus is the best teacher - Yes???

      John 14:26
      But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
      whom the Father will send in my name, “he shall teach you” ALL things...

      John 6:45
      It is written in the prophets, And they shall be “ALL taught of God.”

      Deuteronomy 4:36
      Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
      that *He might instruct thee:*

      Jesus instructed His Disciples - NOT to be called “Rabbi...
      For there is “ONE” Teacher - And you are ALL Brethren. Mat 23:8 NASB

      And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
      them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
      and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
      John 10:16

      One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice - One leader

      {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  43. preacher

    Thanks for the warning - You write - September 1, 2012 8:51 AM...
    “Keep twisting it, A. Amos. You are promoting false doctrine.”

    Reminders about “promoting false doctrine” is appreciated.
    I’ve done that in the past - And - I probably will be “promoting false doctrine” again.
    It seems to be the way of "Mere Fallible Humans" trying to speak for God. Oy Vey!!! :-(

    I was ordained - I was in leadership - I was “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles..

    And I Preached. Yes - I was a Preacher. It was “Humbling” to realize much of what
    I Preached was “False Doctrine.” - “Doctrines of men” “Commndments of men”
    “Traditions of men.” that nullify “The word of God.” Mark 7:13.

    I’ll give you a few examples of common belief - NOT found in the Bible.
    Here’s the first one....

    1 - “Go to Church.” Yup - I used to Preach - Go to Church - Attend Church etc...
    It’s interesting when you do a study looking for “Truth.” Looking for Jesus.
    I read and re-read - Every verse with the word “church” - I wanted to understand.
    And “Go to Church” is NOT in the Bible. I found NO was told to “Go to Church.”

    Seems “Church” always refers to believers - Called out ones - and - an assembly.
    Jesus - He is the head of the body ( the Ekklesia, the called out ones) The Church. Col 1:18.
    It never refered to a building, an organization, or a 501 (c) 3, Corporation the IRS calls church.

    Don’t know if you ever checked or not - but - In the Bible, I found...

    NO one ever *Led* “A Church.”
    NO one ever *joined* “A Church.”
    NO one ever *went to* “A Church.”
    NO one ever *Tithed* to “A Church.”
    NO one ever brought their friends to “A Church.”
    NO one ever applied for membership in “A Church.”
    NO one ever gave silver, gold, or money, to “A Church.”
    NO buildings with steeples and crosses called “A Church.”
    NO - Pastors - in Pulpits - Preaching - to People - in Pews. ;-)

    Seems those are -“Doctrines of men” “Commndments of men” “Traditions of men.”

    Now - I Preach - You are the Church of God - You can’t “Go” someplace you are. ;-)
    And God NO longer dwells in buildings made with the hands of man. He lives in You - It’s Christ in you - the hope of Glory - And - You are - the house of God - The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you.

    You mentioned - August 27, 2012 12:33 PM - There are 5 distinct facets of ministry:
    I’d like to offer 7 more facets of ministry - That the Ekklesia is responcible for.

    And the Ekklesia - the called out ones - The Body of Christ - You and Me - Are...

    1. Kings. 2. Priests. 3. Brides. 4. Servants. 5. Sons. 6. Disciples. 7. Ambassadors.

    1 + 2 - Kings and Priests
    And hath made us “kings and priests” unto God and his Father;
    Revelations 1:6

    Hast made us unto our God “kings and priests:” and we shall reign on the earth.
    Revelations 5:10

    3 - Brides
    For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD* of hosts is his name;
    Isaiah 54:5

    ... Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    Revelations 21:9

    4 - Servants
    If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
    there shall also my servant be:
    John 12:26

    And on my servants and on my handmaidens
    I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
    Acts 2:18

    5 - Sons
    But as many as received him,
    to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
    John 1:12

    And because ye are sons,
    God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts...
    Galations 4:6

    6 - Disciples
    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man
    will come after me, let him deny himself...
    Matthew 16:24

    John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified,
    that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    7 - Ambassadors
    Now then we are ambassadors for Christ...
    2nd Corinthians 5:20

    ... a faithful ambassador is health.
    Proverbs 13:17

    And, since an Ambassodor is - The highest - diplomatic representation
    that “ONE” soverign power - sends to another...

    In the body of Christ - NO one is higher than an “Ambassodor for Christ.” ;-)

    And That's me - and you - The Ekklesia of God.

    Jesus is way cool

  44. Jullie Anne - Preacher - Simply Saved

    Here’s my understanding NOW for Heb 13 - “Obey’ and “have the rule over.”
    Heb 13:7
    Remember them which have “the rule over you,”
    **who have spoken unto you the word of God:**
    whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

    Heb 13:17
    “Obey” them that have “the rule over you,”
    and submit yourselves: **for they watch for your souls**..

    Heb 13:24
    Salute all them that have “the rule over you,”
    and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
    This Greek word “hegeomai” is 28 times in the NT.
    Only 3 times as, “have the rule over” all in Heb 13.
    Moderne translations often use “leader” here.

    It is Strongs #2233 hegeomai. In the KJV it is translated 5 different ways.
    KJV - count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,

    Hegeomai does mean, to lead, it also means “to go before.” “To esteem.’
    A guide who goes before? - Who you esteem?
    Or - I’m the leader/boss? Who you “Will” Obey? - Out of Fear?

    Seems the qualification to who we “Obey” and “Submit” to are...
    Those - “who have spoken unto you the word of God.” Heb 13:7
    And - those that - “watch for your souls.” Heb 13:17.

    NOT a “Title/Position” pastor/overseer/elder - there are NO “Titles” in Heb 13.
    BUT, someone who has given you God’s Word - And watches for your soul. :-)

    This “hegeomai” is being attentive to me.
    Speaking the word of God and watching for my soul.
    Not demanding that I “Obey” and “Submit” to them. That part is voluntary.

    I’ve spoken the word of God to you ALL. Yes?
    And, I’m “watching for your soul.” Whether you ALL believe it or not.
    Can I demand that you “Obey” and “Submit” to me?

    If “Pastors who Abuse” aren’t “watching for your soul” do you “Obey” and “Submit?”
    Not anymore. Thank you Jesus. :-)

  45. Jullie Anne - Preacher - Simply Saved

    It’s interesting to me that “hegeomai” “have the rule over,”
    is also translated “esteem” 3 times.

    Php 2:3
    Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in
    “lowliness of mind” let each *esteem* other better than themselves.

    1Th 5:13
    And to *esteem* them very highly in love for their work’s sake...

    The same word, “hegeomai,” which many refer to as leader/boss,
    (a high place, and Jesus always recommended the low place,)
    is used when encouraging those who need to be in “lowliness of mind”
    and to “esteem” others better than themselves.

    The way I see it now; If someone insists that they are God’s leader,
    And they “have the rule over anyone,” then I can check them out
    with these quidelines. They need to be in “lowliness of mind”
    and “esteeming” others better than themselves. :-)

    This “ hegeomai” is different then today’s leader/boss. Yes?
    Don’t find many “leaders/pastors/elders” **esteeming others**
    better then themselves today. Or submitting one to another.
    They seem to want the TOP spot. The honor, the glory.

    You can tell which “hegeomai,” “leader/boss,” or “guide/goes before”
    is present when confronted with opposition or a different opinion.

    What fruit do we see when today’s “overseer/elder” is challenged;
    “Accusation” “ Argument” “Ridicule”“Name Calling” “Put Downs”
    or “lowliness of mind?” “Submitting, one to another?”

    NOT much “discernment” is needed when looking for “lowliness of mind.”

  46. Jullie Anne - Preacher - Simply Saved

    The Greek word for “Obey” in Heb 13:17 is the root word for faith.
    It is Strongs #3982 peitho - pi'-tho and is translated in the KJV as
    KJV - persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3,

    Hmmm? persuade, trust, have confidence, believe.
    Maybe that word “Obey” then, is different
    from how we understand “Obey” today. Yes?

    The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.
    Only this time it is NOT obey. The word is TRUST.

    Heb 13:18
    Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience,
    in all things willing to live honestly.

    Paul uses #3982 peitho, here in, Gal 5:10.
    I have *confidence* in you through the Lord.

    Maybe we need to go to God and ask Him what
    He really means here in Heb 13:17 for “Obey.” ;-)


    Here is a word study for “peitho” from Rick Saenz,
    living on a farm in south central Kentucky.
    He lists all the scriptures using “pietho.” Interesting read also.


    Here’s Heb 13:17 in the “NKJAV.”

    That’s the “New King James Amos Version.” :-)

    Heb 13:17
    Be persuaded by, trust, and obey, those you have confidence in
    those you esteem as they guide you and think to submit yourselves:
    for they watch, pray and are paying attention to your soul...

    Be blessed in your search for truth... Jesus...

  47. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCSeptember 2, 2012 at 1:26 PM

    All of this is based on a mistranslation in the KJV, and the fact that most subsequent translators have chosen to default to meanings close to the KJV when there is a Greek word or phrase with multiple possible meanings or multiple shadings of meaning that are different than the KJV choice. Keep in mind that the KJV was translated in large part from the Vulgate, not the Greek, and that we now have much earlier copies of much of the Greek New Testament.

    The KJV was intentionally slanted in favor of patriarchy and hierarchy, and I believe was, in part, the result of the sin of the translators in accommodating King James so as to defend his prerogatives, including the devine right of kings, and a preference for male rule (given that there were female pretenders to the throne at various points in history.

    As an example of how ridiculous the translation gets, in Ephesians, we are told to "submit" to one another. But if the meaning of today were meant then, it is advocating an impossibility, since we cannot mutually act to put ourselves under one another's rule. However, we can each esteem the other more highly than ourself, and if we do that, we can have harmony and mutual support and reach agreement rather readily. So the word cannot mean submit and obey as we understand those words in 20th and 21st century English. And esteem, which works, is the better translation.

  48. I believe the root cause of all of your confusion is the lack of a spiritual experience.

    The carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be.

    A. Amos Love do you have the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues?

    Julie Anne?

    56 years Baptist?

    1. Preacher:

      I don't want to offend you, but will share my experience. I described my experience in another comment that you may not have seen. When I was a teenager, I was a part of a youth group at a church and they laid hands on me to receive the HS and the gift of tongues. Nothing came out of my mouth. They then told me to start babbling, that the HS would take over my mouth. I did start babbling and with 20 or so of my peers and respected youth leaders surrounding me, speaking in tongues, singing and praying, it was quite an emotional experience. I continued to "speak in tongues" for a while - not sure how long - maybe a year or so and I convinced myself that I had the gift of tongues. Later on, I realized that I was fooling myself. That I was pressured into this "experience" - that it was more emotional hype than anything.

      Here's what I've discovered about these so-called experiences. They are enticing at the moment, but they don't last during the week when you are in your normal routine when you are dealing with life/work/school and difficult situations. At least this is what I observed from my many acquaintances who had been speaking in tongues for years.

    2. Preacher

      1a - Do you call your self - Pastor?
      1b - Does anyone else call you - Pastor?

      2a - Do you call your self - Leader?
      2b - Does anyone else call you - Leader?

      3a - Do you believe you are an -"Elder/Overseer?"
      3b - Did anyone ordain you as an - "Elder/Overseer?"

      4a - Do you believe you "Qualify" as an -"Elder/Overseer?"
      4b - Do you believe you "Qualify?" - According to the Bible?

  49. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCSeptember 3, 2012 at 3:38 AM


    Paul said that love is better than tongues. So a preacher having tongues and leading a congregation without true love of them is worse than one without the gift of tongues but with the love of God in their heart and evident in all that they do. Nowhere does the Bible teach that tongues is the only evidence of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian. That is a "doctrine of men".

  50. Preacher

    You write...
    “I believe the root cause of all of your confusion is the lack of a spiritual experience.”

    Nope - The original “root cause” of “my confusion” was believing, and trusting - MAN.

    “Mere Fallible Humans” who proclaimed they were “God Ordained Authority.” - LIE
    And when I gave money to MAN - I was giving the money to God. Another - LIE.
    And I wasn’t to speak against - “touch the head of God’s anointed.” Another - LIE.
    And this MAN - My “Spiritual Authority” - I was to Obey and Submit to - always. LIE.

    When you believe the LIE you start to die...

    I believed MAN when they used The Bible - to control and manipulate the congregation.

    I even joined them for awhile - Because I wanted to be like them - Up front - Important.
    With - Power - Profit - Prestige - Honor - Glory - Reputation - Recognition... etc.

    You know...
    ALL those “Idols” of the heart Jesus spoke against. Ezek 14:1-11.

    You know...
    ALL those “Idols” - that come with “Titles” - NOT found in the Bible.

    You know...
    ALL those Idols” that are highly esteemed among men - BUT...
    Are an abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

    I became pretty good at “Being a lord over God’s heritage.”And ‘Exercising Authority.”
    Yeah - I was so good - People even thanked me for it. Go figure... Oy Vey!!!

    No - the “root cause” of my confusion” was trusting MAN - and NOT trusting Jesus..
    Trusting - “Commandments of MEN” “Doctrines of MEN” Traditions of MEN”
    And NOT being a Berean - checking the Scriptures - And Trusting Jesus.

    Jer 17:5
    Thus saith the LORD; “Cursed be the man” that trusteth in MAN,
    and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

    Ps 118:8-9
    It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in MAN.
    It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    Mat 24:4 ...Take heed that no MAN deceive you.
    Mark 13:5 ...Take heed lest any MAN deceive you:
    Luke 21:8 ...Take heed that ye be not deceived...

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them **to go astray,**

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as “sheep going astray;”
    but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest - I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul...

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  51. "The Gift of Tongues" that's a new one to me. Must be a man made idea. Certainly isn't Biblical. Speaking in tongues in the Bible is definitely evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost! Is it the ONLY evidence? Of course not. The Fruit of the Spirit will manifest as well. Was the initial sign and evidence of Receiving the Holy Ghost speaking in other tongues? ABSOLUTELY!

    Acts 2, 10, 19.

    It's obvious that the Apostle Paul spake with other tongues.

    It's obvious that speaking in other tongues was in effect in the early churches.

    1 Cor chapters 12-14.

    God chose it as a sign. Why deny it? When did man eliminate what God instituted? Why?

    When the Spirit gives the utterance, it is of God, and it is a beautiful experience that only God can give!

    ...and it is undeniable evidence of receiving the Spirit of God!

    That's not man made! Read your BIBLE!

    1. Preacher

      I thought the "undeniable evidence of receiving the Spirit of God"

      Was they had ALL things in common. Because they had Love - one for another.

  52. A. Amos,

    Ephesians 4:11
    (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    I am a pastor.

    Go argue with Paul about it. Or God.

    I see that you now have your own translation of the Bible, and have signed a few of your posts as "Jesus".

    You've taken way more authority upon yourself than I ever have!

    1. LOL - Preacher, that was good. I do not believe A. Amos was forging Jesus' signature :) haha

    2. Preacher

      It's really pronounced - Hey Zeus.

      I just spell it - Jesus - for my spanish friends. :-)

      If you ever need some info from a mythical Greek God - Just cry - Hey Zeus.

      I'd be more than glad to help.

      Of course - you might also get the attention of some of my spanish friends.

    3. And - it seems -Llife is always a - Myth

      Sometimes it's a - Myth tery.

      Sometimes it's a - Myth take. And...

      Sometimes it's a - Myth conception.

      But - Life is always a - Myth.

  53. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCSeptember 9, 2012 at 5:15 AM

    There is no punctuation in the Greek. So it would read:
    Ephesians 4:11
    (11) And he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers . . ..

    The punctuation changes the meaning!!! And you are still relying on the erroneous translation, the one made at a secular kings direction, to bolster his "divine"right to rule, and which falsely gives you the right to "rule" over a congregation. It is ignorant of you to continue to do so.

    1. Sorry 56 years baptist,

      I'm not making the connection here, how does that change the meaning? Those offices are still there, just not divided by punctuation.

      What about the next verse?>?

      Ephesians 4:12
      (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

      That's what God wants the MEN who hold these offices to accomplish in His church!

      It's ignorant of you to believe otherwise.

      It's ignorant of you to believe that God intended the church to "rule" His ministry. Perhaps you could give us some scripture for that?

    2. 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBCSeptember 11, 2012 at 4:11 PM

      The NT refers to a woman as an Apostle, to women as prophesying which is preaching, and to women as teaching, including teaching a preacher. You're buying the misogynism of the badly translated KJV, which denies God's choice of women to share the message. The first witness to the resurrection was a woman, and the first Apostle (one commissioned in person by the risen Christ to share the message of the good news) was also a woman who preached that message to his disciples.

      Your ignorance is still showing. Go get a modern, non-biased translation, and learn something about how we came to have the Bible we have, including the translations we have. Then come back and tell me what you learn.

    3. Nice try, I was referring to humanity in my comments. Stick to the subject. Everyone has access to nearly all translations now. Some of them are very accurate.

      Pull your fangs in, and try to stay on one topic, even when it looks like you may be wrong.

  54. Preacher

    Well - you did answer one question - Thanks.

    “I am a pastor.” - And then you say - “Go argue with Paul about it. Or God.”

    Why should I argue with Paul or God? They didn’t call you pastor - You did.
    Are you taking - God’s name - shepherd - in vain? (Vain = empty - of NO value?)

    Believe it or not - I’m familiar with the word pastor in the Bible. I was ordained. :-(
    And - It is one time in the NT - plural - pastors/shepherds - Never as a “Title.”

    And - It seems - those “Servants” who would “feed” “shepherd” or “tend” (Verb)
    “the flock of God” - In the Bible - Are very different then “so-called pastors” today...
    Who “honor themselves” and “seek their own Glory” by calling themself - pastor.

    Jesus said - I receive NOT honor from men. Jn 5:41
    Jesus said - How can you believe who receive honor one of another. Jn 5:44
    Jesus said - He that honors himself - his honor is nothing. Jn 8:54
    Jesus said - He who speaks of himself seeks his “Own Glory.” Jn 7:18

    When you tell someone - “I am a pastor.”
    Is that - “honoring yourself?” Jn 8:54
    Is that - “seeking your own glory?” Jn 7:18. Jn 8:50.

    When someone calls you - “pastor.”
    Is that - “Receiving Honor” - from men?

    NO - Those who “feed” - “shepherd” - “tend” - In the Bible.
    Are nothing like Todays - so-called pastors.

    I think I agree with King David...

    The Lord - Is my Shepherd. - Thank you Jesus...

  55. Preacher

    Since you’re big on telling folks to “Read your Bible.”
    I thought maybe you can help.

    I can’t seem to find one of His Disciples - In the Bible - who said - “I am a pastor.”

    Can you Preacher? - Answer these questions? From the Bible?

    In the Bible - How many of His Disciples - Are “Called” - Pastor/Leader?
    In the Bible - How many of His Disciples - “Call themself” - Pastor/Leader?
    In the Bible - How many of His Disciples - Have the “Title” - Pastor/Leader?
    In the Bible - How many of His Disciples - Are Hired or Fired - as a - Pastor/Leader?

    And - every pastor/leader I’ve met - Had the “Title” - Reverend.

    In the Bible - Does anyone have the “Title - Reverend?

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    1. And you tell me.....were there any pastors in the Bible? In the New Testament were there any pastors?

      Were the disciples leaders?

      True ministers are not hired or fired they are called.

      Did not GOD say that he would send Pastors after His own heart??

    2. Preacher

      I noticed - You didn’t want to answer the questions ...
      Or - You didn’t know the answers. ;-)

      Let me help - The correct answers for ALL the questions asked - Would be...
      NONE - Zero - Zip - Nada - NOT one of His Disciples....

      In my experience...
      “Pastors who Abuse”
      “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority”
      “Pastors additcted to Power - Profit - Prestige - Glory - Reputation - Recognition”

      Do NOT have the courage to answer these questions - honestly.

      When you believe the lie you start to die...

  56. Preacher

    You write...
    “Did not GOD say that he would send Pastors after His own heart??”

    YES - He did...
    That’s why - In the Bible - You don’t know who these Shepherd/Servants are.
    In the Bible - They decrease - So - Jesus - can increase. Jn 3:30 KJV
    In the Bible - They do NOT lift up - Themselves - “Mere Fallible Humans.”

    They lift up {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    YES - That’s - “the heart of God” - in action.

    YES - In the Bible - Those “Servants” who - feed - shepherd - tend - God’s Sheep...
    Are NOT - called - Pastor/Leader. - They “humble” themselves.
    Do NOT - call themself - Pastor/Leader. - They call themselves “Servants.”
    Do NOT - Take the “Title” - Pastor/Leader. - They make themselves of NO reputation.

    Jesus taught His Disciples - NOT to be called - Leader
    For you have “ONE” Leader - Jesus Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB

    And - NOT one of His Disciples - called themselves - Leaders...

    YES - That’s - “the heart of God” - in action.

    YES - Jesus taught - There is “ONE” Shepherd - Jesus Christ.... Jn 10:16.

    And - NOT one of His Disciples - called themselves - Shepherd or Pastor...

    YES - That’s - “the heart of God” - in action.

    And he is the head of the body, the church:
    who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
    that in “ALL things” he (Jesus) might have the “preeminence.”
    Col 1:18

  57. A. Amos,

    Sometimes it's better to answer questions with questions, in an effort to lead someone to understanding. That obviously doesn't work with you. :-)

    A wise man once said, "you lead sheep, you drive goats".

    It's obvious that you have a candy stick here that you love to harp on. It's also obvious that you despise the God ordained office of a pastor.

    You are apparently obsessed with trying to discredit preachers, quite honestly I find your arguments silly and trivial.

    In your reasoning, anyone who has ever been called or accepted the title; pastor, preacher, teacher, etc. Is disqualified by reason of pride.

    Does the Bible say "mark those who call themselves pastors"?

    Absolutely NOT! The BIBLE speaks honorably of these offices.

    A pastor is a MINISTER! (As we have already discussed!)

    I believe it is you, who is trying to make that title synonymous with kingship or usurping authority. Quite to the contrary it is a title of MINISTRY! (Go look that up, and see how many times the Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES MINISTERS!) So, the TERM or TITLE "pastor" is rightfully used to denote an office of ministry.

    Perhaps you would rather we called ourselves "angel" as Jesus called the ministers book of Revelations?

    In the end, you are simply self-justifying your unwillingness to SUBMIT to the authority God has given to the MEN He has called.

    I'm amazed at how you take scriptures out of context, simply to advance your agenda.

  58. Preacher

    Hey - We are in agreement again - cool - Maybe we’re getting somewhere now...

    You write...
    “(Go look that up, and see *how many times* the Apostles

    Well - kinda in agreement - Because - You "mis-preached" to us only a little. :-)

    I can find - In the Bible - Paul calling himself - “a minister.”
    BUT - I can NOT find - any other apostle - calling themself - “a minister.”
    Yup - Only Paul - NOT plural - Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES - As you said.

    Now - I cudda missed it. I've actually been wrong in the past. ;-)
    Maybe “you” can find some other apostles who called themselves minister?
    I’d be interested to see what you come up with. ;-)

    And - When Paul calls himself “minister” he mostly uses the Greek - diakonos.

    Minister - Strongs #1249 diakonos dee-ak'-on-os - In the KJV it is translated...
    KJV - minister 20, servant 8, deacon 3; 31

    Minister -Thayers Greek-English Lexicon - Has diakonos as - one who executes the commands of another, servant, attendant, minister - the servant of a king - a waiter, one who serves food and drink.

    Yes - We’re in agreement - Paul called himself - minister - diakonos - a “Servant.”
    And - Paul calls others - minister - diakonos - a “Servant.”

    BUT - Paul - Never calls - himself - pastor, shepherd, or leader.
    AND - Paul - Never calls - anyone else - pastor, shepherd, or leader.

    Hmmm? I hope you didn’t “shoot from” the “Lip” or give me “Your Traditions”
    without doing any research on this topic - Before asking me - “Go look That Up.”

    If someone who says they’ve - “been called or accepted the title; pastor, preacher”
    “Teaches” or “Preaches” something that is - NOT accurate - NOT in the Bible...

    Should they - Remove themselves? And be a good example to the flock?
    Should they - Lay down their “Titles” that have become an “Idols?”
    Should they - Lay down their - Power - Profit - Prestige - that comes with the “Title?”

    And - What should we call them? I mean - From the Bible?

  59. Preacher

    Just for future reference - Here’s some of what I found - about - “minister.”

    And - Remember. - Minister is - diakonos - servant - And...
    I can only find - one apostle - Paul - **calling himself** - diakonos - servant

    Here are some verses where Paul calls himself - minister - diakonos - a “Servant

    1Cor 3:5
    Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos,
    but “ministers” (diakonos = Servants) by whom ye believed...

    2Co 6:4
    But in all things approving ourselves as
    the “ministers of God,” (the diakonos = Servants of God) in much patience...

    Col 1:23 ...I Paul am made a “minister.” (a diakonos = Servant.)
    Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a “minister”... (a diakonos = Servant.)

    Eph 3:7
    Whereof I was made a “minister”... (a diakonos = Servant.)

    Here is Paul -calling others - a “minister” - a diakonos = “Servant” of Jesus Christ.

    Paul called - Timothy - a “minister” - a “Servant” - of Jesus Christ. - 1Ti 4:6, 1Th 3:2,
    Paul called - Tychicus - a “minister” - a “Servant” - Eph 6:21, Col 4:7.
    Paul called - Epaphras - a “minister” - a “Servant” - Col 1:7
    Paul called - Apollos - a “minister” - a “Servant” - 1Cor 3:5

    Yup - It seems “Ministers” in the NT - Refers to Servants...
    Never to - Todays so-called pastors - Who demand you - Pay - Pray - and Obey.
    Todays pastors - Who want the - preeminence - That only belongs to Jesus. :-)

    Thanks for the Challenge - The admonition to - “Go look That Up.”

    I enjoyed the Bible study this morning - Hope you learned something. :-)

    *My people* hath been *lost sheep:*
    “their shepherds” have caused them “to go astray,”
    Jer 50:6

    For ye were as “sheep going astray;”
    but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    1 Pet 2:25

    Yup - That was me - for a long time - Led astray - by those who convinced me...
    Nay - deceived me - They had - “been called or accepted the title; pastor, preacher”

    I’m Blest - I’ve returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul...

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  60. A. Amos,

    Your semantics are amusing, but they undermine Biblical principle. Again, you try to twist truth to prove your agenda. It's obvious in your "Bible Study" that you approached it with the intent to prove your point. NOT with the intent to allow scripture to interpret scripture.

    The New Testament has many references to saints as being "brothers" and "sisters". What if we take on that title? Does that mean that we are "worthy" to be children of God? Is that pride? Doesn't that lift us up and designate us from unbelievers?

    Are you consistent in your doctrine? Do you think this is unacceptable as well?

    As far as your attempt to side track the discussion again with the idea that only Paul used the title "minister", it just so happens that he wrote the majority of the NT. Paul claimed to be a minister of the gospel, and he gave his sons in the faith the same title. What office did they fill? What does history tell us about their title?

    How do you feel about the "title" apostle?

  61. Preacher

    All I asked you was...
    “Maybe “you” can find some other apostles who called themselves minister?
    I’d be interested to see what you come up with. ;-)”

    Well - Seems “YOU” could NOT find - “other apostles who called themselves minister.”

    And - Instead of having “Integrity” - to admit “YOU” made a mistake...
    And - Instead of having “lowliness of mind” - to be corrected...
    And - Instead of having “Humility” - to “submit” your self one to another. Eph 5:21
    And - Instead of - “Giving Thanks ” for someone doing “YOUR” research for you, - “Giving Thanks” for a total stranger providing “YOU” scripture showing only Paul calling himself - minister - diakonos - “Servant” - Giving Thanks” for “YOU” learning something - You did NOT know before.

    You - being of “Special Clergy Class” - turn to “Accusation” to cover your error...
    “your attempt to side track the discussion again with the idea that only Paul used the title "minister",”

    When it was - “YOU” - Preacher - who asked...
    “(Go look that up, and see how many times the Apostles CALLED THEMSELVES MINISTERS!)”

    Well - I did what you asked - And reported what I found - In abundance...
    And - By searching the scripture - At “YOUR” request...
    I find - Only Paul - called himself - minister - diakonos - “Servant.”
    And - I found - NO other apostles calling themself - minister - diakonos - “Servant.

    And - I thanked you - “Thanks for the Challenge - The admonition to - “Go look That Up.”
    Because - I never researched how many apostles called themselves - minister - Servant.

    BUT - Now I know how many apostles called themselves - minister - diakonos - Servant...
    Only One - Paul.

    AND - Now - “YOU” know how many apostles called themselves - minister - diakonos - Servant...
    Only One - Paul.

    Oh - and I never had - the idea - or said - “that only Paul used the title "minister",”

    Please do NOT put words in my mouth - I have enough of my own to deal with. ;-)

    I could NOT find one time when Paul used minister as - a “Title.”

    In my experience with those who take “Titles” and “Positions” NOT in the Bible...
    “Pastors who Abuse”
    “Pastors who are addicted to - “Exercising Authority.”
    “Pastors who are addicted to - Power - Profit - Prestige - Reputation - Recognition...

    “Titles” become “Idols”................ “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters”....... A No, No.... Mat 23:10 KJV

  62. Preacher

    Oh yeah - You also ask...
    “What does history tell us about their title?”

    Well - Biblical History tells us...
    NOT one apostle - used - diakonos - minister - “Servant” - as a “Title.”

    BUT - I cudda missed it... :-)
    Maybe you can show me - In the Bible - Where anyone used - diakonos - as a “Title.”

    And - Only Paul - called himself - minister - diakonos - “Servant.”

    Now others called themselves servants - BUT - This is a different Greek word.

    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
    Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
    Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
    2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant

    Here they use the Greek word - doulos

    It is Strongs #1401 doulos - doo'-los - In the KJV - It is translated...
    KJV - servant 120, bond 6, bondman 1; 127

    Thayers - doulos - a slave, bondman, man of servile condition - devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests - a servant, attendant.

    Gee - This “servant” thingy - is all over the place - AND...

    “Titles” become “Idols”
    “Pastors” become “Masters”

    When you believe the lie you start to die...


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