Thursday, August 30, 2012

Jordan Young Arrested Yet Again and Faith Tabernacle Pastors

There have been two posts here (Buh-Bye Pastor Edwin Young and How Did Pastor Edwin Young Treat Women?)  about Faith Tabernacle Apostolic Church in Junction City, Kansas,  regarding the senior pastor, Edwin Young, who abruptly resigned recently and also his son, Jordan Young, who has been charged with all sorts of sexual abuse crimes against children.  Uncovering sex abuse crimes in a spiritually abusive church is not uncommon.  We have seen examples online with  Sovereign Grace Ministries churches, Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamental Bible churches, with Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap of First Baptist Church Hammond, Calvary Chapel churches, etc.

A big red flag in spiritually abusive churches is the authoritarian rule of the pastor.  Over the last couple of weeks, I have been learning more about United Pentecostal Churches (UPC).  Dudley and Young were once UPC pastors, but left a while back and are now Apostolic Pentecostals or Oneness Pentecostals.  Not only do they use extra-Biblical rules in their church, but they view pastors as the "man of God".  These men are placed at the level the Catholic Church would place the Pope.  They believe you cannot be "saved" except through a preacher:  

I believe in the act 2:38 message. I belive the word and that you do have to have a peacher to be saved. Julie go find a home church and stop criticizing. Keep your comments to your self.

I didn't make too many brownie points when I criticized Edwin Young, the "Man of God", who resigned.  Look at this gem of a comment directed at me because I dared to challenge the style of the "anointed preacher".   What do you think - is this a threat?   No lightning bolts have hit me yet.  Evidently, I need to be worried about my soul now because I didn't shut my running mouth (whoa!) about this anointed one: 

AnonymousAugust 20, 2012 2:42 PM
Woman i fear for your soul.. i dont go to that church but i have heard him preach.. and whether u believe it or not he was annointed and i would highly advise you to shut your running mouth being sarcastic that was Gods annointed irreguardless of if he did had wrong u need to keep your mouth shut.. and for the record i am a woman as well not "bashing" you because you are a woman

Here are a couple of comments by a reader identified as "Preacher" discussing his belief that only a preacher can save souls:

PreacherAugust 25, 2012 7:04 PM
1 Corinthians 1:20-23(20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?(21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?................ and how shall they hear without a preacher? 
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!  

Do you have a better method than God's method for saving souls? 
"it PLEASED GOD by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that BELIEVE" 
Here is another example of a PREACHER leading someone to Jesus.Acts 8:29-31(29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.(30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?(31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
How about Acts chapter 2? Did not Jesus himself ordain Peter (a man and a preacher)? Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church....the church was built on a preacher, preaching is what brought the church into existence, and preaching will sustain the church of the Living God!  
After Peter PREACHED, those that HEARD were pricked in their hearts, and said "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" An ANNOINTED PREACHER said, 
Acts 2:38-41(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.(40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.(41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 

At, Lois and others are compiling quite a lot of information on this particular church and what has been going on over the years.  We read at the site, "Your pastor is God's gift to you. If you've got questions, the only one you should go to is your pastor, not anyone else, even other ministers."  

The following video features Pastor Nathan Dudley, the new pastor replacing Edwin Young at Faith Tabernacle.  This teaching is common and it looks like Faith Tabernacle will be following a similar path in their teachings.  

Here is a small amount transcribed from the video (from  Pastor Nathan Dudley speaking:

"The only way you're ever going to get to Christ is to follow a man of God. The only way that you're ever going to make it in the rapture is to follow a man of God. Amen! You can't make it without a pastor. You can't be saved without a pastor. You need a pastor and you need to imitate him. You need to be like him. You need to look at your pastor. Take a close look at him. ...Imitate him. Do what he does. In prayer.  In worship. ...He is the one who is responsible for your soul. ...God's going to be with you if you'll do what your pastor does."  

I transcribed a bit more here: 

"Your pastor is God's gift to you.  I said your pastor is God's gift to you.  Amen.  He's God's gift to you.  And OHHHHHHHH if I could just be like my pastor.     I want to be a man of God just like my pastor is.    Praise God.  Amen.  Amen."

In the video, ladies are told to look at the pastor's wife to determine how to dress and families should be dressed like the pastor's family if they have any questions.  

Do you want to hear a pastor say all of the above?  You know you do!  Listen to Nathan Dudley and his theatrics about following and imitating the pastor/Man of  God.  I have to tell you - I had the video playing and you should have seen the expressions on my kids' faces as they heard this pastor (shouting) from a distance.   Perhaps kids are more discerning than we think.

Going back to the sexual abuse topic, I just received word that more nasty fruit has come forth in the Jordan Young case.  Police have filed additional sexual abuse charges.  Again, when we see abuse in the church, we will often find other kinds of abuse that have been covered up.  This abuse has been going on for a number of years.

Junction City Minister Tied To Two More Child Sex Abuse Cases
JUNCTION CITY, Kan. (WIBW) -- A Junction City minister at the center of a church sex scandal has been arrested in connection with two additional cases.
Jordan Young, 25, is facing child molestation charges in four separate cases stemming from an investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct at Faith Tabernacle Apostolic Church in Junction City where he had been serving as the music minister.
Young was originally taken into custody at the Junction City Police Department at 11:30 AM on Monday, August 13, 2012.
He was arrested for Aggravated Indecent Liberties With a Child, Attempted Criminal Sodomy and Solicitation of a Child.
He was still in the Geary County Jail on Friday, August 17, 2012 and being held on a $250,000 bond from his first arrest when he was re-arrested for Aggravated Criminal Sodomy, Aggravated Indecent Liberties With a Child and Sexual Solicitation of a Child in connection with a second case involving a second victim. On Thursday, August 30, 2012, police confirmed that Young was arrested in two more cases. In one, he was arrested for Aggravated Criminal Sodomy and Aggravated Indecent Liberties With a Child and in the other, he was arrested for Indecent Liberties With a Child and Criminal Solicitation of a Child.

I've had a lot of traffic at the blog from people searching for the Edwin/Jordan Young story.   Comments left here and in my inbox have expressed confusion from both former and current members.  Even though their church standards  teach that I am a heathen because of my "cut" hair,  some have been bold enough to contact me because of the spiritual and emotional confusion they are going through.  My heart goes out to these folks.  

The subjects we have discussed are connecting emotionally and spiritually with some and causing them to question their teachings - even to question some of their rules on hairstyles and other extra-Biblical teachings.  This is good.  Please pray for clear direction for those who have been displaced by the situation at Faith Tabernacle and for those who are simply questioning what they have been told to believe all of these years.

The ThroughGraceAlone blog is written by a former Faith Tabernacle member who was at Edwin Young's church for nearly 10 years.  Take a look at this experience:

Absolute power corrupts absolutely…
I’ve heard the quote several times recently in regard to the issues at Faith Tabernacle. Why? Because Edwin Young had, or thought he had, that power. If he said it, people believed it. If he said someone was bad, few looked past the accusations to see if there was any basis to them. There were a few times that he even preached that if the preacher said the sky was green, we’d better just believe it, even though we’d always thought it was blue.
Wait. He told us how to dress. He required a weekly fast. He told us to pray and hour a day. We were supposed to ask permission to leave town and miss a service, to date or to marry, to buy a house or a car, to apply for and/or accept a new job. He said no one made us do that and that no one made us stay. But the doctrine of the church said that if we didn’t, we could be thrown out… and that if we left the church, we were “backslid” and headed to hell.

Does God own people or does the pastor?  When you have a pastor who decides all the rules for you and that do not line up with scripture, it's time to take a step back and read the scripture yourself.  When a pastor becomes so prominent in our life that he takes the place of God, we know our priorities are wrong.  No Man of God should ever want to get between God and His people.  Pastors are to help people find God, not get in the middle.  We must not blindly follow pastors, but be good Bereans and test what is said.  I know this goes against a lot of what FT has taught, but testing your leader is scriptural as written in Acts 17:10-12:

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Although I am not from United Pentecostal-type churches, I want you to know that my message is sent with a whole lot of love and understanding as one who has gone through spiritual abuse.  You have a friend here.  Others, too, would be willing to "hear" your stories and be of support to you.  


  1. Yep Julie you better watch out. Give these goobs that can't correctly interpret scripture a little time and they will be pronouncing word curses on you. I know because I've experienced it. These folks "fearing for you" and warning you are not the pentecostals of the "good ole days". They are not the Godly loving people that happen to attend a charismatic church or exercise true gifts of the spirit. THEY ARE A CULT. The UPC, the pentecostal holiness movement and any oneness pentecostal church is a CULT. They preach salvation through receiving the gift of speaking in tongues at the time of your conversation. No gift of tongues then no salvation. Fortunately for a World in need of a savior, that is not the gospel it is a lie. Salvation through following a man of God ? Only if his name is JESUS Christ.

    I'm not afraid for you. In fact I think God has used a very unfortunate package of litigation (that should never have been filed, biblically or legally speaking)to bring forth another lighthouse. Now it's shining down a bit of urgently needed exposure on those that pervert and misuse faith to abuse the faithful and those that aren't so sure anymore. Frankly I'm more concerned about the second group. I think about Hannah and many others that have taken shots from the self proclaimed "godly" people and it quite literally makes me sick. When I count the young people that I know or have read about that have been attacked by modern day pharisees and church thugs, instead of loved and ministered to it breaks my heart. We all need to pray for all these folks, especially the young people.

    1. Eh - curses, lawsuits, whatever. I can't fear men anymore.

      There is definitely some twisting of scripture going on from what I have read.

      I also agree with you about the young people. I think that was where the rubber met the road for me. I'm sure I was thinking about Hannah and those other young adults when I typed up my first Google review. It is still so maddening to think about!

  2. I grew up UPC and they are no different than FT. In fact when I followed your case in the news, I could not help wonder if FT had a UPC influence.

    1. From what people have told me, they are very similar except perhaps FT has more rules and is more conservative. I'm learning this as I go. It's been very eye-opening, that is for sure.

    2. ...actually, I meant to say the Beaverton Grace church (not FT) but probably no different in context.

      the confusing thing about the UPC churches is they vary greatly in what each individual church enforces with regards to their standards. That can make the topic confusing from a members perspective, but if an issue is pressed enough it falls back on the organizations articles of faith doctrine which is probably just as eye opening...

    3. No matter what this man or his son has done, it dosent change what he preached. The truth is still the truth.

    4. The famous cult leader Jim Jones also preached some truth, too. His followers drank his Kool-Aid and DIED!!

  3. Hi Julie Anne,

    Just one clarification. You stated above, "Dudley and Young were once UPC pastors, but left a while back and are now Apostolic Pentecostals or Oneness Pentecostals." Actually, the UPC is a denomination that is within the family of Oneness Pentecostals, along with the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW). There doesn't seem to be any great difference between the two denominations except for racial makeup. I believe these are the two largest oneness groups, and generally believe there is no salvation outside of oneness theology, in particular their understanding of baptism, which must be in the name of Jesus ONLY (not Father, Son & Holy Spirit).

    If I recall my church history correctly, the UPC split from the Assemblies of God about a century ago when the Assemblies began accepting trinitarian theology. However, the UPC church seems to have morphed over time, and no longer resembles either the theology or the culture that was prevalent at the time of the split.

    1. Yes, Matthias - you are correct - they are within the same family. I was told they dropped their UPC license, so they weren't officially with UPC. Faith Tabernacle was evidently more conservative.

      The salvation and baptism beliefs is exactly what I have been reading and learning, too. If you are baptized in Father, Son, HS, it is not legitimate. I had no clue about the beliefs until reading up on it because of this story.

    2. Julie Anne,

      "I was told they dropped their UPC license, so they weren't officially with UPC. Faith Tabernacle was evidently more conservative." More conservative than the UPC? [Shudders]. Of course, "conservative" tends to be such a loaded word in religious circles.

      You know, there is one major thing that I have learned in reading and hearing people's stories that were/are caught up in spiritually abusive churches. There is always one peculiar, distinctive facet about the church's doctrine or culture that separates the church from others, and it is precisely this facet that causes people to keep attending that church and overlook or explain away "bad behavior." For example, In a oneness church, one will be drilled about being baptized in the name of Jesus only. If one come to believe and submit to this doctrine, he/she will ignore all the other eccentricities and absurdities of a particular church because there is no where else to go that believes like this church does. For such a one to leave this church would not only be turning their back on the church, but on Jesus himself. Pastors in these churches instinctively know this, and use this to keep their flock in line, whether by admonitions, guilt, or force.

      I'm sure if you look back at BGBC, there are some distinctive facets that keep people at that church despite the "bad behavior" that you have described.

    3. I wanted to add that there is an added dimension in certain Pentecostal/Charismatic circles (not limited to oneness theology). In certain circles, the belief is that the pastor is not only chosen by the local congregation, elders, or deacons, but the pastor is "anointed" by God himself. It then stands to reason that if your pastor is anointed by God, and you choose to no longer sit under the teaching of one anointed by God, you will at the very least no longer be blessed. Some would go so far to say that you will actually be cursed - because if the pastor is the mouthpiece for God, and you choose not to obey, you have actually turned your back on God himself and will experience his wrath.

    4. Matthias: You are on a roll. I love your 9:31 comment and want to discuss this further sometime because you have hit on something that is so important. And the "anointed" issue - - - YES!!! I have been noticing that issue coming up in the videos and readings I've done recently on Faith Tabernacle. That is another new one for me.

      Check your e-mail!

    5. psychological coercion is one of the traits of an abusive cult. The first step in converting someone to a cult is to convince them that they have the absolute truth, once established the logical reason being that everything else is wrong so the blindfolds to abuse are set... let the indoctrination begin.

  4. Thank you guys, Lois and Julie Anne. I appreciate the education, the exposure of this idolatrous heresy. It sickens my heart learning (and in some regards—remembering) that there are churches (and I agree with Andy—they are cults), that there are cultures of ecclesiastical controls operating like this in the name of our Lord and Savior.

    Truth is—Jesus delivered us from all this, from the rule of religious systems, from having to submit to any man besides Christ or to any other mediating legalistic scheme for our salvation. For freedom He has set us free to be self-controlled and Spirit-led—not controlled by any other means or enterprise.

    “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:5,6a).

    . .

    As I listened to Dudley I recognized in the music and intonation of his preaching a certain delivery style that is not uncommon in pentecostal churches. He sounded at times just like a certain Assemblies of God pastor I know, who, actually, sounds just like John Hagee.

    1. I had one experience with John Hagee in Atlanta. There was some church choir shin dig at some huge venue and John Hagee spoke. His words sickened me and brought grown women to tears with his rude and shaming words. I couldn't believe he was a Christian, let alone a pastor, with his abusive words.

    2. "He sounded at times just like a certain Assemblies of God pastor I know, who, actually, sounds just like John Hagee."

      Not surprised. These guys seem to take cues off of the big televangelists on TBN. What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

    3. Julie Anne, you provide us with a perfect illustration of how their mimetic ['be and do what I am and say'] model breaks down.

      Anonymous writes, 'Woman i fear for your soul.. i dont go to that church but i have heard him preach.. and whether u believe it or not he was annointed and i would highly advise you to shut your running mouth being sarcastic that was Gods annointed irreguardless of if he did had wrong u need to keep your mouth shut.. and for the record i am a woman as well not "bashing" you because you are a woman'

      Here it is: She was mimicking precisely the way Edwin Young talks, telling women to shut their running mouths!

      Here's the danger in these cults of personalities where the pastors have elevated themselves to doors and mediators standing between the Door and Mediator who is Christ. These pastors have been effectively exalted to the status of idols to be worshiped (i.e., deemed worthy to be served) as Lords.

      So in regards to this culture of conformity and mimicry this Anonymous woman seems to have modeled her speech patterns upon the mouthiness of so-called 'men of God' in her life.

    4. Exactly! Can you imagine, David - - she is okay with the trash-talking of women and now has adopted that pattern in her own life against other women?!!! ACK!!!!

    5. And such is exactly what some pastors teach people to do. You heard the new pastor say so himself. Imitate the pastor. Go in the prayer room, see how he prays and pray like him. Worship like him. Dress like him and his wife. So no wonder this woman spoke that way. No wonder the young guys in the church started to talk down to females in the church, even those older than them, and call them heifers and that they were going to teach her about submission.

      Paul wasn't afraid to go right to Peter and correct him when he was doing wrong in withdrawing himself from the Gentile believers when they ate. And he not only corrected him in the matter before others, he wrote about that and hundreds of years later we can see where it is not wrong to speak about the error of a minister.

  5. " More conservative than the UPC? [Shudders]. Of course, "conservative" tends to be such a loaded word in religious circles."

    :) I have to comment on this. There were many ministers that felt the UPC was/still is becoming lax in areas of "holiness." (This often translates to meaning standards teachings.) In fact, a number of the well-known ministers in the UPC left around 2007 after the organizations ministers voted to allow advertising on TV. They went off and formed a group called Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship, where they consider that this is a "preferred" apostolic way. This caused big problems, both in the manner in which they went about this and in the UPC making a declaration that you cannot hold license with the UPC and be part of such a group.

    These ministers are the more conservative ones, some of which Edwin Young fellowshipped. His two sons sung in the group Covenant along with one of their big name ministers at one of their big name churches.

    How are they (WPF) more conservative? Again, it comes down mostly to these outward standards. They wouldn't advertise on TV and preach against it (yet some of these same ministers fill the internet with their websites and YouTube videos and such). Some have been against any use of media in the church. Some are more strict in dress.

    As to your comment about the UPC and AOG, the UPC didn't form until 1945, so they as a group did not split from the AOG. There were two apostolic groups that came together to form the UPC in 45. But, yes, Oneness Pentecostals did split from the AOG, but not because "the Assemblies began accepting trinitarian theology." They were already Trinitarian and so were the Oneness Pentecostal ministers before they came to the "revelation" of Oneness. The break was because those who started to see things differently, became increasingly adamant that people be re-baptized in the name of Jesus. The AOG started as not wanting to have to have a defined set of beliefs, but they felt they needs to do so in order to address this "new issue." Thus, when they made an official statement of beliefs that included that of Trinitarianism, the others had no choice but to leave. Prior to the insistence of this change in water baptism, the other ministers had allowed them to water baptize in the name of Jesus, while they baptized Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

    1. Hi Lois,

      Thanks for correcting my account of the early history of the oneness movement and the UPC. It has been a couple of years since I have studied it, so my recollection was a bit fuzzy.

      Good points on the use of "conservative" in these circles - these can apply to so many other churches as well. We also learned the hard way that when you are part of one of these "conservative" churches, if you fellowship with those left of your church, you are "liberal" trying to destroy the church, and if you fellowship with the right you are a "legalist" binding where God hasn't bound. And yet, those on the left and right of you also think of themselves as "conservatives."

      Thanks again.


  6. What many do not realize is that Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic Pentecostal beliefs basically consider most Christians to not be saved for a few reasons. (Note that everyone attending these churches does not believe this.) They are by no means a mainstream Pentecostal church. What sets them apart are three things:

    1. The insistence that one must be water baptized by immersion, with the name of Jesus spoken over them. They reject the use of the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you are not baptized by immersion you are lost. If you are not baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus only (thus their being pegged as 'Jesus Only'), you are lost and all your baptism did was get you wet. Water baptism is essential to being saved and thus it must be properly done.

    2. The insistence that speaking in tongues (language unknown to the speaker) is the "initial evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit. If one has not spoken in tongues, it means one has not received the Holy Spirit. Since you are none of his if you do not have the Spirit, then this means you are lost.

    3. The belief in Oneness. Many in these churches believe you also have to come to the knowledge of Oneness in order to be saved or you are believing in another Jesus. They believe Jesus is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. They reject the doctrine of the Trinity as being pagan and say those who teach such believe in three gods. This is why water baptism in the name of Jesus is so stressed.

    So if one fails in any of the above points, they are lost according to these teachings. And that isn't even getting into the churches that teach various standards as salvational, or the ones that believe you cannot be saved without a pastor.

    1. Lois,

      What has me curious, is how to Oneness groups respond to the charge of modalism, which was a heresy condemned by the early church? Do they "plead guilty" to the charge, or do they try to explain their beliefs in such as a way to refute the charge?

      Also, how do they respond to individuals in other groups who claim to speak in tongues, such as those in the Assembly of God? Would they consider their tongue speaking a "lying sign and wonder" or accept it as a genuine movement of the spirit?

      As to the point that Oneness Pentecostals are not mainstream, this is theologically correct, but culturally, there seem to be large pockets of these churches where few, if any other Pentecostal churches exist, which in some sense does make them mainstream in some areas, in much the same way as the Churches of Christ are not theologically mainstream, but are culturally mainstream in Kentucky and Tennessee.

    2. Good questions, Matthias. I will attempt to answer.

      Oneness Pentecostals are not modalists. Let me preface my sharing by stating that even with OP beliefs, they can and do vary. OPs believe that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in other words, one "person" as compared to three "persons" of the Trinity. In modalism, the belief is somewhat different, but you could say that OP is an offshoot of that teaching.

      Modalists also believe God is one "person" and reject the idea of a Trinity. However, they differ from Oneness Pentecostal beliefs in an important way. While they believe God was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they believe he was only one of these at a time. First God was the Father. He ceased being the Father when he came to earth as Jesus. When Jesus died and ascended, then God was and is the Holy Spirit. In other words, this view believes that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Oneness Pentecostalism does NOT believe that.

      The reason I emphasize that Oneness Pentecostals are not the same as mainstream Pentecostals is because I don't want readers to get the impression that their friend who is Pentecostal believes this way or that all Pentecostals do. There is a distinct and important different between the groups.

      I will agree with you about the cultural aspect.

    3. Lois, your point 2 'that speaking in tongues is the "initial evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit.' is also an AoG Tenet.

    4. Monax, yes, but there is again a big difference. The AOG teaches it is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that this is different from first coming to God in believing and being saved. It is something people should seek and expect, according to them- but they don't say a person isn't saved unless it happens.

    5. alright, Lois, some big questions:

      so then according to the AoG perspective there are two different types of spiritual receiving experiences? an initial experience of 'being born of the Spirit' which is different than 'being baptized with the Spirit'--an experience manifested in utterances of tongues?

      i'm not sure i understand their idea of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. According to 1 Cor 12 not everyone has been given the gifts of tongues? does that mean to them that God did not intend for every believer to experience the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'? again, in their eyes how is this baptism different than being born again, i.e., being 'born of the Spirit'?

    6. David - My experience in the AoG church was like this:

      Speaking in tongues is evidence of being baptized in the HS which is different than that initial spiritual conversion. Although I've heard some claim that they both can happen at the same time, they typically occur separately. When I was involved in charismatic churches, it was like an added bonus to receive the gift of tongues. We were encouraged to pray for that gift and keep on praying until we received it. That is a strange story in itself. I remember people standing around me telling me to just open my mouth and start babbling and see what happened. I probably had about 20 people standing around me, laying hands on me, speaking in tongues and praying out loud. At that time, I thought I had received the gift. Looking back, I think it was a bunch of emotional hype.

    7. Monax, these things can be tough to explain.

      Now, I have heard that some AOGs may teach tongues as salvational, but in the official AOG stand, it is not. They believe a person is saved when they turn to God. Before speaking in tongues. Then they teach a second experience of being baptized with the Holy Spirit, which will be evidenced by speaking in tongues.

      When you deal with the issue of tongues, in most Pentecostal churches you need to understand that they create a difference between "initial evidence" and what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Both mainstream Pentecostalism and Oneness Pentecostals teach that difference. Without that distinction, the teaching on tongues as "initial evidence" crumbles. Thus, when one brings up what Paul taught, it is dismissed as not pertaining to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

      It doesn't matter that nowhere in scripture do we find a teaching of initial evidence. It doesn't matter that nowhere in scripture do we find any of the apostles teaching this. It doesn't matter that nowhere in scripture do we find Jesus saying this was to happen. It doesn't matter that nowhere in scripture do we find a distinction between the three instances of speaking in tongues in the book of Acts and what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 12-14.

      The only way the teaching of initial evidence can stand is if one separates that thought from what Paul clearly teaches.

    8. re: Tongues. I once had someone who was involved in Pentecostal churches tell me that most Pentecostal churches believe that tongues were AN evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. But he continued that other Pentecostals, especially Oneness, believe that tongues is THE evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. It's amazing how changing a simple article before the noun completely changes the theology.

      Lois, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. Thank you!

    9. Matthias, you are most welcome. I am more than happy to help people better understand what is involved.

    10. thank you JA, Lois, Matthias. .

  7. Lois, Matthias, Julie Anne, thank you all for explaining the differences among the Pentecostal churches and the AofG church. My mom's family has been a part of the AofG church since the 1800's but I was raised in an SBC church. I never quite understood the AofG/Pentecostal obsession with speaking in tongues or why it was such a big deal. Your explanations bring so much clarity to the subject. Personally I have no respect for the AofG as a whole after watching firsthand how they treated some missionaries recently. Also, has anyone heard of a group called the "Shouting Methodists"? We have family stories dating to the 1800's about the "interesting Shouting Methodists" but outside of those stories I have not heard of the group.

    1. Hi Mandy: I'm not familiar with either story: AofG missionaries or Shouting Methodists. Might have to do a little Google search. I've learned a lot from Lois lately, too!

      PS Sorry, your comment got held up in my spam box. For some reason I've had a handful end up there and I have no idea why! ~ja

    2. Mandy, to my knowledge there was not a group called the shouting Methodists, but rather that within the Methodist movement in the earlier days, there appears to have been a time when their services were more "lively" and thus the title of shouting Methodists. I don't recall if some may have spoken in tongues as well. My former UPC pastor used to mention that on occasion. It was a way to show that they (the Methodist church) used to be different and didn't move forward in the "light" God gave them.

      There was a whole progression they taught of how church organizations little by little came to more "truth" until the full revelation was revealed to the Oneness Pentecostals and the church was returned to how they were on the day of Pentecost.


      I didn't read the entire article- just the beginning- but it should give you an idea.

    4. Great find, Lois. I never heard of the Shouting Methodists either, but there were certainly charismatic elements within the Holiness movement, of which the Methodists were a part. I mentioned to Julie Anne in an e-mail the other day that when one studies the Pentecostal movement, by necessity, one will eventually find themselves studying the Holiness movement as well, since many early Pentecostal Churches came out of the Holiness movement, and some still adhere to the traditional teachings of the Holiness movement. There are still some "fringe" churches within the Holiness movement which can't be really classified as Pentecostal nor Holiness based on what typifies these churches today. They are a "hybrid" of sorts, and could be best classified as "Charismatic."

    5. " I mentioned to Julie Anne in an e-mail the other day that when one studies the Pentecostal movement, by necessity, one will eventually find themselves studying the Holiness movement as well"

      Very true, Matthias. The Oneness Pentecostals in particular have roots in the Holiness Movement.

    6. Fwiw, in the 90's when the so-called third wave arose, there were two significant epicenters for the dispensing of a ‘transferable anointing’ they called the Blessing. These two Mecca-churches were Toronto Vineyard and Brownsville Assembly of God, known respectively as the Toronto Blessing and the Pensacola Revival. Believers flocked to these two destinations for what they believed was an ‘outpouring of the Holy Spirit.’ It may be interesting to note that the word-faith players had a hand in launching this madness.

      The epicenter for this movement in Pittsburgh was the Covenant Church of Pittsburgh—the founding Pastor of CCOP, Bishop Joseph Garlington, as I understand it, has a Holiness background, and can frequently be seen on TBN. I attended CCOP for a time in the mid-nineties when this craziness broke out! It was then that I made a study of it. I prayed and fasted for discernment and understanding. And although the internet was then in its infancy, there was still a lot of information out there available on the third wave phenomenon. I made use mostly of eye witness accounts and the research of others in tracing the various personalities and theological assumptions back as far as I could go. The roots of the movement were occultic, spearheaded by false prophets teaching doctrines of demons.

      One evening CCOP brought in some guy wearing a Toronto mantle (so to speak) who was going to dispense some anointing or blessing, I don’t remember exactly what was spoken. However, I do remember watching the so-called holy laughter, the animal manifestations, people twitching about, etc, etc. I interviewed some who had become drunk. I also watched my cell group leader (a small, thin, middle age African-American woman) who after someone had laid hands on her had fallen back on the floor and began writhing on her back in a serpentine manner, her arms undulating in the air, and a swooshing rattling sound came out her mouth.

      At the time the Bible Answer Man—Hank Hanegraaff—wrote a book entitled Counterfeit Revival. I believe his conclusions were more sociological, that these manifestations, drunkenness, laughter and such were learned and expected behaviors, that it was a matter of mimicry. Now while there was a significant social dimension to the phenomena my conclusions are just as much sociological as they are spiritual. I honestly believe that this ‘transferable anointing’ was not of the Holy Spirit but was demonic. I truly believe they were (unwittingly?) passing out demonic spirits.

      There’s a connection here, I believe, between this seeking after an anointing, some fresh fire and baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the madness of the third wave. I truly believe these churches opened themselves up to being indwelt by evil spirits.

    7. While some of this was going on during my UPC days, I remember my former pastor speaking out against it. We were not at all supportive of the writhing, uncontrollable shaking and animal noises, etc.

      I believe that a combination of things can be found in such "experiences." Besides what you shared, there is also the fact that some people deliberately fake it. Even within Oneness Pentecostal churches, there have been people who have deliberately faked tongues. And sometimes it was because they were interested in dating someone in one of the churches....

      I've given away numerous copies of Counterfeit Revival as well as similar books. People in Pentecostal type churches need to be careful in their "experiences." Experiences should never be used to create doctrine.

      There is a very sad story of a Oneness Pentecostal church in Washington (not UPC and was somewhat different in their Oneness beliefs) where the church closed down. They started down the route of following experiences and placing a major emphasis on them. It led to the teaching of spiritual connections, which caused the end of many marriages. And in that church, too, the pastor couldn't seem to leave the females alone. There have been at least three books written about it. And though it closed back in I believe the 80s, people are still suffering from their involvement today.

      It is all too easy to get caught up in movements and go in search of bigger and new things. The Bible clearly warns that the Christian is NOT to follow after signs and wonders. They can be very deceptive and lead you into much nonsense and harm.

    8. I had a long talk with my mom today and she shared what she knew of the Shouting Methodists. She said that her great-grandmother was originally from Illinois and grew up as a Shouting Methodist and she is the source of what we know. According to my great great grandmother, the Shouting Methodists broke off from the Methodists; their first meetings were simply called "Assemblies" and that eventually transitioned into "Assemblies of God". They were known for their obsession with speaking in tongue, the raising of hands during worship, laying on of hands to promote healing and other eccentricities. This would have been in the mid 1800s and apparently my family has been a part of it from the very beginning. It is only in the last few years that family members have started attending churches of other denominations. I honestly don't know how much of this is accurate as this is just my family's story.

      Julie Anne, as far as the AofG and missionary issues are concerned, I will email you about it in the next few days.

    9. Ok, Mandy - I'll look for it. Thank you!

      It's fascinating that your family has been part of the AofGod since the beginning. I'm sure your mom and older generations have some stories to share.

  8. Julie Anne, what exactly are the sexual abuse crimes of Sovereign Grace Ministries?

  9. Read this again from the first paragraph: Uncovering sex abuse crimes in a spiritually abusive church is not uncommon.

    Just as in Faith Tabernacle story, Edwin Young is not accused of committing sex abuse crimes, but someone in his church was (his son, Jordan now arrested). As I've been reading more and more spiritual abuse stories with an authoritarian pastor, there also can be a pattern of sex abuse cover up. News reports that in the Jordan Young case that there is a long history. So when did Edwin Young, the "Man of God" and "anointed one" at Faith Tabernacle know of this? We don't hear anything about safety measures that were taken to protect children. Was Jordan still in his music ministry and working with children when he was arrested?

    Go read at and see for yourself (do a search for Wallace's story or SGMNot story - those 2 come to mind). There are a number of sex abuse stories within the various SGM churches (or church-related events, home groups, etc). The typical pattern is that the victim notifies church leaders. Church leaders spend more time helping the perpetrator and keeping their image clean and do little to help the victim and victim's family. SGM is not alone in this pattern. I've been reading similar accounts at Calvary Chapel churches, IFB churches, Household of Faith, and of course my former church.

    1. "Edwin Young is not accused of committing sex abuse crimes"

      Definitely not accused of doing what Jordan is accused of doing. But he has been accused of sleeping with perhaps a dozen young female members of the church, allegedly waiting until they were at least 18. Neither the police, nor the Attorney's Office, will comment on whether he is being investigated for anything. I would bet money that he is under investigation.

      Reports are now that the new pastor announced Thursday that the church will not file charges against him for taking church money. I am trying to get that officially confirmed, but have reason to believe it is true.

    2. Lois, what do you believe to be the reason for Edwin's resignation? There seems to be a lot of issues going on there (again, pretty cmon in an abusive church environment).

    3. Ugh. Weird word above is "common".
      iPhone issues.

    4. These are only my thoughts as to why. I do not believe the letter mentioned and reason.

      The last date for one of the alleged sexual charges for Jordan is August 1, 2012. My understanding is that on August 2, 2012, the resignation letter was found on a desk at the church. Considering the accounts of some, that Edwin had been approached in the past about Jordan and that one of the "horsemen" were kicked out of the church for catching Edwin with one of the women, I believe these may be the reasons. My thoughts are that it is mainly due to the situation with Jordan. There are some who believe Edwin's trouble with the women goes at least all the way back to when Westberg (the previous pastor) was alive.

      The charge for August 1 appears to have taken place at the church, while other charges appear to have occurred at Riddle Hall, a large building next to their Apostolic Academy. I added a separate page this week just for Jordan that you can see here:

    5. Julie Anne, you had asked if Jordan was still involved in the music ministry and working with the children at the time of his arrest. Here he is at the beginning of this video at the keyboard at the 2012 music recital for Apostolic Academy. He is also seen elsewhere in this woman's videos from 2012.

  10. Julie Anne said; "Uncovering sex abuse crimes in a spiritually abusive church is not uncommon. We have seen it with Sovereign Grace Ministries, with Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap of First Baptist Church Hammond, etc."

    You lumped Sovereign Grace together with men who have actually COMMITTED sexual abuse.

    No minister/paid employee of a Sovereign Grace church has been charged with Sexual Abuse. NO sexual abuse is alleged to have taken place on Sovereign Grace properties/churches.

    I would encourage you and others to not suggest sexual abuse was being committed by leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries.

    Honesty in blogging is a good thing

    1. You are taking one sentence out of context. I have never said that ANY SGM pastor/leader has been charged with sex abuse. I've read accounts of sexual abuse occurring at SGM home group meetings or church functions, however. This has been acknowledged in member meetings by SGM pastors.

      Hyles has a laundry list of sexual sins if you look around on the internet ie, adultery, but the context of my post was about sexual crimes against children. Do you know of any sexual crimes he has done against children? My point is that he was a spiritually abusive pastor and we also can read countless stories on the internet of him not dealing with perpetrators in appropriate ways. This is the pattern with some SGM, Calvary Chapel, Independent Fundamental Baptist or Bible churches, etc.

      Have you read any of the SGM stories? Are you connected with them? It's interesting, a friend from years ago whom I lost track of contacted me through the blog when she heard about my case. She told me her personal story of being around a sexual perpetrator at a SGM church she attended. When she told me the story, I had already heard about it - it was one of the stories I had read a year or so earlier on blog. She would have no reason to lie to me - she was shocked that she was so closely connected to spiritual abuse and leaders who covered up sexual abuse.

    2. PS - James - I have revised the particular sentence you had issues with to include other churches. If you found it confusing, perhaps others might as well.

  11. IF Edwin young anoint of God,Why the pastor having sex with young girls when they turn eightteen yrs old,that GOD MAN.Lord have mercy.He is aniont,stealing money &having sex with young girls,leaving his wife &his son.{BUT NOT BY GOD}TELL THAT PENTECOSTAL PLAYBOY TO GET IT RIGHT WITH GOD.AMEN



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